Biblical Hebrew Forum

[James Read <J.Read-2 AT sms.ed.ac.uk>]

as the Greek esther may not have rendered in you email client it was

epsilon-sigma-theta-eta-rho

So this is probably more interesting in terms of analysing the vowels.

James Christian

Quoting James Read <J.Read-2 AT sms.ed.ac.uk>:

> Apologies. In that case, check this out:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet
>
> as you will see there is a Greek letter tau which very much resembles
> an English T.
>
> James Christian
>
> Quoting Yodan <yodan AT yodanco.com>:
>
> > Thanks for your explanation.
> >
> >
> >
> > The answer to your question (in the intro to your answer) is obvious:
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't read Greek. Were I able to read Greek, I would not need to ask
> > whether Greek has a T.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *********************************
> >
> > Rivka Sherman-Gold
> >
> >
> >
> > **********************************
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: James Read [mailto:J.Read-2 AT sms.ed.ac.uk]
> > Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 7:48 AM
> > To: yodan AT yodanco.com
> > Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] FW: Ester / Esther
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting Yodan <yodan AT yodanco.com>:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Thank you. I am curious to know whey Ester, which clearly has a T (as
> > there
> >
> > > is a dagesh in TAV) became Esther. I'm assuming that there is a T (in
> >
> > > addition to TH) in Greek. Is this correct?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Did you look at the greek text in the link I sent you? The answer is
> >
> > clearly 'No!'. There is only a theta in the place of the Hebrew Tav. I
> >
> > think there are a number of things we need to consider here:
> >
> >
> >
> > a) The pointing is late. This is no indication of how it was
> >
> > originally pronounced.
> >
> > b) We do not know with certainty how the Greek theta was pronounced by
> >
> > the translator who chose to use the theta (let alone the general
> >
> > pronunciation of that era) - it could have been a th sound or merely
> >
> > an aspirated t or who knows
> >
> > c) We do not even know with certainty the pronunciation of English
> >
> > 'th' at the time it was chosen in English translations.
> >
> > d) All we really know with any kind of certainty is that the
> >
> > pronunciation of English th has many variations even today in the many
> >
> > different accents and dialects of English
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > James Christian
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > *********************************
> >
> > > Rivka Sherman-Gold
> >
> > > YODAN Publishing
> >
> > >
> >
> > > **********************************
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > > From: James Read [mailto:J.Read-2 AT sms.ed.ac.uk]
> >
> > > Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:11 AM
> >
> > > To: yodan AT yodanco.com
> >
> > > Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] FW: Ester / Esther
> >
> > >
> >
> > > In Greek E???? . See Esther 2:10 at
> >
> > > http://www.septuagint.org/LXX/Esther/2 for an example. For those whose
> >
> > > email clients cannot view Greek characters there is clearly a theta
> >
> > > (th) in the position in question.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > For Latin see http://www.latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=0&b=19&c=2
> >
> > > chapter 2 and verse 8 for Hester.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > In order to understand the transmission of names you have to
> >
> > > understand that names were first transliterated into Greek (a language
> >
> > > with different phonetic limitations to Hebrew) and then into Latin
> >
> > > (another language with different phonetic limitations) and that most
> >
> > > of our transliterations have come through this double filter and then
> >
> > > been influenced by our own languages phonetic limitations.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > An interesting case study are the names Jacob and Joshua in English
> >
> > > translations. Somehow, they have managed to become Jacob and James for
> >
> > > Iakov and Joshua and Jesus for Yehoshua. While it is relatively a
> >
> > > simple exercise to see how Iakov underwent various transformations to
> >
> > > become Jacob and how Yehoshua became Joshua it is presently beyond me
> >
> > > just how exactly  English  versions got this strange fork when the
> >
> > > Latin versions are devoid of it.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > e.g. http://www.latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=1&b=20 shows that James
> >
> > > is clearly Iakobus in Latin.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > James Christian
> >
> > >
> >
> > > James Christian
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Quoting Yodan <yodan AT yodanco.com>:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > > Does anyone have an explanation to why the transliteration of Ester is
> >
> > > > Esther, considering the fact that TAV has a Dagesh and, therefore, has
> >
> > > been
> >
> > > > pronounced T and not TH all along. I wonder if anyone knows how this name
> >
> > > > was transliterated into Greek or Latin - whether this name's third
> >
> > > consonant
> >
> > > > is transliterated as T or TH.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Thanks,
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > *********************************
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Rivka Sherman-Gold
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > YODAN Publishing
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > P.O. Box 60655
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Palo Alto, CA 94306-0655
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > 650-494-6994
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >  <mailto:Rivka AT YodanPublishing.com> Rivka AT YodanPublishing.com
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > **********************************
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >  <http://www.CalisraVentures>
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
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