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  • From: Rolf Furuli <furuli AT online.no>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Fwd: questions, reliable evidence, 'stand' and 'said'
  • Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 12:07:38 +0200

Dear Randall,

As you imply, before a meaningful discussion can be performed, we need to know exactly how we both define perfective and imperfective. So far you have only given two + expressions of the perfective aspect and have said nothing regarding the imperfective one. And with all due respect, I do not understand what "+ a virtual whole" means. Are not all events with an event time or states "virtual wholes," each having a beginning and end? I also have problems with "+an endpoint attained". Does that mean that the action or state expressed by a perfective BH verb is completed at reference time? In other words, are actions and states expressed by perfective verbs always terminated?

As mentioned I would like to ask you for a definition of the imperfective verb. And in order to distinguish between the aspects I have the following questions:


1. Can both the perfective and imperfective make a *part* of an action or state visible?

2. Can both aspects make the details of an event visible?

3. Can both aspects include both the beginning and the end of an action or a state?

4. Can both aspects express conative and resultative situations?



vayyish'al rolf

Please tell us your definition of perfective and imperfective. What
are the characteristics of a perfective and an imperfective verb
respectively, and by which criteria can the two verbs (actions) be
distinguished?>

for purposes of the thread a perfective has
+ a virtual whole
+ an endpoint or point of attainment

+/- a definition that would include the
" `amad 'suffix-TAM' examples"

If you want further discussions of definition, then please provide
something for the `amad clauses as a workable starting point.
2Chr 20:20, 2 Samuel 20:11 and 12, 2 Ki 2:7

To illustrate the definitions by examples is fine. I think that more list-members will benefit from the discussion when I use an English translation of a verse and supply the BH verb form than from a BH transcription. Sometimes your expressions are very short and to some extent somewhat cryptic, as "+/- a definition that would include the "`amad `suffix-TAM examples"" I guess that the majority of list-members do not understand exactly what you mean by this. Then to the examples.

In the 28 verses of Ezekiel, chapter 1, and the 22 verses of chapter 10, we find 28 YIQTOLs, 15 WAYYIQTOLs, 2 QATALs, and 7 participles with past meaning. The question is whether there is an aspectual difference between the YIQTOLs, WAYYIQTOLs, and the QATALs. And if so, how can we see this aspectual difference? I use the verb (MD in these verses.

Ezek. 1:21 When the creatures moved (INF.CON.- HLK), they also moved (YIQTOL -HLK); when the creatures stood still (INF.CON. (MD) , they also stood still (YIQOL-(MD); and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

Ezek. 1:24 When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, like the tumult of an army. When they stood still (INF.CON. -(MD), they lowered (YIQTOL-RPH) their wings.


Ezek. 10:3 Now the cherubim were standing (PARTICIPLE) on the south side of the temple when the man went in, and a cloud filled the inner court.
Ezek. 10:6 When the LORD commanded the man in linen, "Take fire from among the wheels, from among the cherubim," the man went in and stood (WAYYIQTOL) beside a wheel.
Ezek. 10:17 When the cherubim stood still (INF.CON), they also stood still (YIQTOL); and when the cherubim rose, they rose with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in them.
Ezek. 10:18 ¶ Then the glory of the LORD departed from over the threshold of the temple and stopped (WAYYIQTOL) above the cherubim.
Ezek. 10:19 While I watched, the cherubim spread their wings and rose from the ground, and as they went, the wheels went with them. They stopped (WAYYIQTOL) at the entrance to the east gate of the LORD'S house, and the glory of the God of Israel was above them.

In these verses we have two occurrences of the verb (MD as YIQTOL and three as WAYYIQTOL. Do these forms have different aspects? And in that case, how can we see it? Or is it not possible to see it? And what about the other 26 YIQTOLs with past reference? Do they have different aspects compared with the WAYYIQTOLs? My answer is No. The YIQTOLs and the WAYYIQTOLs are all imperfective, and the reason why the YIQTOLs are used, is that some word element precedes each one, and therefore, a WAY- prefix would not be possible. Interestingly, we find the same kind of account in the Ethipic Enoch, and here we we also have a great number of prefix forms with past reference.

We may also bring WEYIQTOL into the picture. In Nehemiah 3:14, 15 we find 2 YIQTOLs and 3 WEYIQTOLs, all with past reference. Are these perfective or imperfective? There are two WEYIQTOLs of )MD. Are the end made visible in these?

Neh. 3:14 The Dung Gate was repaired (QATAL) by Malkijah son of Recab, ruler of the district of Beth Hakkerem. He rebuilt (YIQTOL) it and put (WEYIQTOL- (MD)) its doors and bolts and bars in place.
Neh. 3:15 ¶ The Fountain Gate was repaired (QATAL) by Shallun son of Col-hozeh, ruler of the district of Mizpah. He rebuilt it (YIQTOL), roofing (WEYIQTOL) it over and putting (WEYIQTOL) its doors and bolts and bars in place. He also repaired the wall of the Pool of Siloam, by the King's Garden, as far as the steps going down from the City of David.






--
Randall Buth, PhD
www.biblicalulpan.org
randallbuth AT gmail.com
Biblical Language Center
Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life
_______________________________________________

Best regards,

Rolf Furuli
University of Oslo





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