Biblical Hebrew Forum

[K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>]

Jim:

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 6:31 AM,  <JimStinehart AT aol.com> wrote:
>
> Mark Spitsbergen:
>
> Ur is east of the Euphrates River.  The Euphrates River is often referred
> to as NHR.

Correct. That is, if we assume that we are talking about Ur of the Chaldeans.

Every map that I have been able to find puts Ur, the Sumerian city,
w-e-s-t of the Euphrates River, therefore it does not fit the Biblical
narrative.
>
> Genesis 11: 31 strongly implies that Harran is a long distance from Ur.
> That supports the view that Biblical Ur is historical Ur, in southeastern
> Mesopotamia, and Biblical Harran is historical Harran, in northwestern
> Mesopotamia.
>
While the implication is that Harran fell outside the realm of
political control of Ur of the Chaldeans, how far was that? Genesis is
silent on the distance.

> In chapter 11 of Genesis, Terakh’s family goes from Ur to Harran.  In
> chapter 31 of Genesis, in connection with Jacob leaving Harran and going 
> back
> home to Canaan, the text specifically tells us at Genesis 31: 21 that Jacob
> crosses “the NHR/river”, which in context must be the Euphrates River.
>
Correct.

> But nothing in the Patriarchal narratives says that Ur is Abraham’s “
> hometown”:
>
What about Genesis 11:27–8, 31? But the English word “hometown” refers
to whatever town in which one dwells as his home, not where one was
born. Therefore, )BRM had two hometowns before he moved to Canaan to
live as a pastoralist: Ur of the Chaldeans, then Harran.

> (1)     When Abraham tells his trusted servant to go to the place of Abraham
> ’s MWLDT at Genesis 24: 4, the servant goes to Harran, not Ur, to find
> Rebekah as Isaac’s ideal bride.
>
You are making a linguistic error here—the meaning of MWLDT is where
he is from? Because he dwelt in Harran for a while, several years in
fact, Harran is the last place he was from—his last “hometown”— before
moving to Canaan.

> (2)     I go with the view of many scholars that MWLDT in Biblical Hebrew
> means “kindred”, not “birth” or “birth place”, an issue that we discussed
> at some length on another thread last week.

And you still have that wrong.

>  On that view, Genesis 11: 28
> says that Abraham’s brother Haran died in the presence of his father

When are you going to learn Hebrew? LPNY in time sequence refers to
before, as in an event that happens before another event.
>
> Most historians see the Hebrews as being indigenous to Canaan, rather than
> being from Mesopotamia.  In my controversial view, that’s what the
> Patriarchal narratives have been accurately telling us for 3,500 years now.
>
The reason your view is controversial is because the text of Genesis,
as well as all other historical records, put the Hebrews as indigenous
to “on the other side of the (Euphrates) River”. The reason we have
trouble taking you seriously is because your claim flies in the face
of all logic because your claim contradicts the clear statements of
the text. Either the text is accurate (as claimed by some on this
list) or the text is inaccurate (as claimed by others on this list)
but the text can’t be both accurate and inaccurate at the same time
(as claimed by you).

> Jim Stinehart
> Evanston, Illinois

Karl W. Randolph.