Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] Unicode/XML Westminster Leningrad Codex bug repair on transcription notes.

b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Biblical Hebrew Forum

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: Yakov Hadash <yakov.hadash AT gmail.com>
  • To: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Unicode/XML Westminster Leningrad Codex bug repair on transcription notes.
  • Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:14:17 -0400

I have a LOT of trouble getting tanach.us to work on the Mac. I'm not just talking about font issues, I'm talking about the whole web site. Whenever I go for an individual verse or specific passage, the Hebrew just doesn't show up. When I go for a full chapter, sometimes the Hebrew comes up but more often I just get nothing at all. This is on Firefox 3 RC3, Opera, and Camino. Of course Safari can't get anything at all from your web site.

I would suggest you add a link from your web site to MacSword like "For now it seems that Mac browsers have a difficult time with our web site, but you can access the WLC by using MacSword (link)."

It took me two years before I stumbled across MacSword which is the answer to most of my prayers. I don't know why it's such a secret.

Are there any Mac users out there who share my pain?

-Yakov Hadash
From if AT math.bu.edu Tue Jun 17 10:02:46 2008
Return-Path: <if AT math.bu.edu>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
id 72A654C02B; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on malecky
X-Spam-Level: **
X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.4 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,
HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE autolearn=disabled
version=3.2.3
Received: from smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net
[207.172.157.102])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA934C01C
for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:02:38 -0400
(EDT)
Received: from mr08.lnh.mail.rcn.net ([207.172.157.28])
by smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 17 Jun 2008 10:02:38 -0400
Received: from smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net
[207.172.4.11])
by mr08.lnh.mail.rcn.net (MOS 3.8.6-GA) with ESMTP id KAL64402;
Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:02:38 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from 216-15-115-158.c3-0.bkl-ubr2.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com (HELO
[192.168.1.100]) ([216.15.115.158])
by smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 17 Jun 2008 10:02:31 -0400
In-Reply-To: <003401c8d030$daa4f330$66a314ac@xp>
References: <mailman.1.1213464012.19328.b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
<457D36D9D89B5B47BC06DA869B1C815D079EAD43 AT exrad3.ad.rad.co.il>
<e6ea6c000806142331k48a0060bld57cda4c30159ae6 AT mail.gmail.com>
<56141F3C-5A16-4E3A-8EE1-7B67EFF0D705 AT math.bu.edu>
<4856BAEA.2040009 AT vadimcherny.org>
<7ADCB209-992F-43CC-B89D-1285E1472AEA AT math.bu.edu>
<9B386F4E-B41C-431B-9968-17D70193C908 AT gmail.com>
<AB0483E0-741E-4EC8-9F07-2FC3AEFE5D09 AT math.bu.edu>
<BF064DA0-3C12-4B32-A536-996D141530F6 AT gmail.com>
<0CC4D253-BD7C-425D-9AE5-2004A69892F2 AT math.bu.edu>
<003401c8d030$daa4f330$66a314ac@xp>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1)
X-Priority: 3
Message-Id: <13248794-B928-457F-9AE5-236E97C39D32 AT math.bu.edu>
From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:02:30 -0400
To: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1)
X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/50, host=mr08.lnh.mail.rcn.net
X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown,
refid=str=0001.0A010202.4857C3FE.0148,ss=1,fgs=0,
ip=207.172.4.11, so=2007-10-30 19:00:17,
dmn=5.4.3/2008-02-01
X-Junkmail-IWF: false
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=UTF-8;
delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9
Cc: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] About Dagesh's
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Biblical Hebrew Forum <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
<mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
<mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:02:46 -0000

Yigal,

It is not the Dagesh Xazak you are hearing, methinks, but an =20
inevitable faint echo produced by the pressing and releasing of the =20
tongue, as occuring in the production of the D sound in the word =20
KADUR, 'ball', which upon a slight lingering upon the D to stress it =20
becomes KADdUR. Such reading is independent of the dagesh in the D, =20
and would be naturally articulated this way by any speaker, aware or =20
unaware of a dagesh. The same thing happens to the L of $ALOM, =20
clearly sounding $ALLOM to me, the absence of any dagesh in the L =20
notwithstanding.
I admit, though, that in the Sabbath-night ZMIROT it is $AAA-LOM =20
ALEIII-KEM....

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Jun 17, 2008, at 12:16 AM, Yigal Levin wrote:

Dear Issac,

I know that you think that linguistics is not a science, but one =20
could say
the same about nature - who cares why the sun rises in the east and =20=

sets in
the west? The less we know the better. The purpose of "pure" =20
theoretical
science is to satiate our human curiosity about the world around =20
us. Humans
are a part of that world - that's why we study history, =20
anthropology and
social sciences (Yes, I know there are differnce in practice and in
application...).

The study of linguistics is meant to explain how languages develop and
"work". But they also shape future development: once somebody, be =20
it the
masoretes, Medieval grammarians, Gesenius or Ben-Yehudah, codify =20
the rules
in order to explain existing phenomona, those rules are then taken =20
as "fact"
and influence (or: limit) further development. Understanding the =20
development
of the Dagesh's and of the BGDKPT rules is interesting to some (and =20=

who ever
is not intersted need not particpate in this thread). However they =20
are a
part of the Hebrew language as it has existed since the mesoretes, and
that's the only REAL Hebrew we have. A few year ago, the Hebrew =20
Language
Academy "floated" the idea of officially doing away with niqud, =20
which is not
really used in most Hebrew writing anyway. The outcry was =20
tremendous. Even
though most Israelis hated learning the rules and don't really =20
remember
them, they do feel that they are a part of their language.

I, BTW, certainly do "hear" (or maybe it's "feel") the Dagesh Hazaq =20=

in daily
speach. That could be because I know that it's there.


Yigal Levin





----- Original Message -----
From: "Isaac Fried" <if AT math.bu.edu>
To: "Yakov Hadash" <yakov.hadash AT gmail.com>
Cc: "b-hebrew Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] About Dagesh's


Yakov,

Allow me to write V for a soft bet, and B for a hard. Also, F for a
soft pe and P for a hard. Recall also that $ is shin.
So we have in Hebrew DAVAR, 'thing, word', but also DABAR, 'leader,
speaker'. We have NAFAX, 'blew', but also NAPAX, 'blacksmith'.
I do not know why there is a dagesh in the middle radical of the piel
form, but does it practically matter now if we write NI$EK, 'kissed',
without a dagesh in the $? Those who pretend to read it NI$-$EK
delude themselves. I think that BK"P became hard thereby only
incidentally, but now we are stuck with this phenomenon and need to
say DIBER, not DIVER.
Look at the word KAF, 'palm of the hand'. 'My hand' is KAPI. Why is
the pe now dgusha? Because, say the grammar books, the word is from
the root KPP. So what? Does this have to turn an F into a P?
Conclusion: The less you explain the better off you are.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Jun 16, 2008, at 9:43 PM, Yakov Hadash wrote:

On Jun 16, 2008, at 8:11 PM, Isaac Fried wrote:
We will need to keep the dot, the "dagesh qal", in the letters
bet, kaf, pe to distinguish between their "hard" and "soft"
manifestation. Otherwise, the dagesh is redundant in plain speech.

Yeah but you didn't address my issue.

Without the dagesh hazak, there is no way of explaining a lot of
confusing issues with vocalizing Hebrew, especially with =D7=A4=D7=99=D7=
=A2=D7=9C
and =D7=94=D7=AA=D7=A4=D7=A2=D7=9C, which have dagesh hazak as part =
of the stem.

Do you want people to just not be able to know why there's a noun
"davar" and a verb "medabber" (and not "davar" and "medaver")?

YH.

_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew




----------------------------------------------------------------------=20=

----------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: =20
16/06/2008
07:20

_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew





Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page