Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] About Dagesh's

b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Biblical Hebrew Forum

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: Vadim Cherny <him AT vadimcherny.org>
  • To: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] About Dagesh's
  • Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 10:45:47 +0300

Sure, dagesh is not for secular writing, because it is not for speech at all.

My presumption is that the Masoretes won't have used one mark for two different phonological events. So there should be no difference between dagesh kal and hazak. So I conjecture that dagesh is a stop.

Note that Hebrew is a lossless language or, in other words, has zero redundancy. Cantors, therefore, have to pronounce every letter very clearly - which is highly unusual in singing.

Dagesh hazak generally serves to prevent post-tonic vowel reduction. Post-tonic gemination exists in many languages.

mitlAvesh - mitlAv'sh , especially in singing
but mitlA.vvesh
Eventually, aspiration was lost in begedkefet pairs, and mitlAbesh
.vv --> b
Non-aspirated begedkefet sounds appeared due to erroneous use of dagesh in speech.

Also, post-tonic gemination appears after secondary stress:

hA-vakAr - hAv'kAr
but hA.vvakAr and eventually hAbakAr

Word-initial dagesh kal serves to prevent concatenation:

natan vakar - nata-nvakar - nata-'vakar
but natan .vakar and eventually natan bakar

Concatenation doesn't threaten after open syllables, thus no word-initial dagesh.

There is an interesting case of gemination in piel. That flexion relates command, intense action, and can be compared to milspeak pronunciation. Piel appeared from paal:

davAr - d'vvAar! - d'vvEr! - di.vvEr - diber

Dagesh kal prevents jamming of consonantal clusters. Try chanting:

catAvti - catA-vti - cata'ti
but catAv.ti

nichtAv - ni-chtAv - ni'tAv
but nich.tAv

And mappiq: only by introducing a stop before final hey can we chant it clearly:

dvarEh - dvarE'
but dvarE.h

Vadim Cherny



Isaac Fried wrote:
Vadim,



1.. Your theory that the dagesh is a cantillation mark is interesting, but even if so it has no place in Hebrew secular writing, which is my point.
2.. Could you give us some examples to a stop by dagesh to avoid jamming?
Isaac Fried, Boston University

----- Original Message ----- From: "Vadim Cherny" <him AT vadimcherny.org>
To: "Isaac Fried" <if AT math.bu.edu>
Cc: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [b-hebrew] About Dagesh's


Dagesh is not really redundant. Do you think that dagesh worked just fine for two thousand years so that the Masoretes heard it, and suddenly became redundant in 60 years of the Modern Hebrew?
Dagesh was just never meant for speech, it is a very proper cantillation device, as indeed the entire Masoretic marking system is a cantillation guide.
In singing, dagesh is very necessary to avoid jamming by forcing syllabification.

Vadim Cherny

Isaac Fried wrote:
<div class="moz-text-flowed" style="font-family: -moz-fixed">1. Well known biblical exceptions for words starting with BB, BP and KK are worth calling attention to:

עַל-לִבּוֹ בְּבֹאוֹ אֶל הַקֹּדֶשׁ Exodus 28: 29.

וַיְהִי בְּבוֹאוֹ וַיִּתְקַע בַּשּׁוֹפָר Judges 3:27

וְאִכָּבְדָה בְּפַרְעֹה וּבְכָל חֵילוֹ Exodus 14:4

הֲלֹא כְּכַרְכְּמִישׁ כַּלְנוֹ Isaiah 10:9

2. Indeed, few vestiges to soft initial B, K, P are left us now in: )AXAREY-KEN, LIPNEY-KEN, )AP-AL-PI-KEN, LO)-KEN? And LO)-KLUM. On the other hand B, K, P are hard now [by sanction of the Hebrew Academy] even following the close )IY-, ‘no-, un- dis-’, LO)-, ‘no, not’, and DU-, ‘double’, as in )IY-B.HIR-UT , ‘lack of clarity’, LO)-K.A$IR, ‘unfit’, DU-K.IWUNI, ‘bidirectional’.

3. Abolishing the dagesh altogether from Hebrew script would clear the orthography of a redundant mark and simplify the grammar.



Isaac Fried, Boston University



----- Original Message ----- From: "Yaakov Stein" <yaakov_s AT rad.com>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] About Dagesh's



' Ve'avarti VE'eretz mitzrayim ba'lailah hazeh, ve-hikeiti
CHOL-bechor....'

I was wondering if anybody could explain why the usual dagesh-ed form
is not used!

The rule is very simple actually. The dagesh is dropped after an open
syllable.

This is always the case after an open syllable in the middle of a word,
and is also the case after open syllables at the end of the previous
word
when the two words are "connected" (i.e. the previous word has a
connecting cantillation mark).

Yaakov (J) Stein


_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew


</div>







Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page