Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Dirk Frulla <fiveacorns AT yahoo.com>]

> There is evidence the earth is flat, and that is why people believed it to
> be flat
> for many years; but there is now more and better evidence to say it is
> round. Nothing wrong with being dogmatic about that.


This is a bad example. Ptolomy, if I remember correctly, about 50 BC
measured the circumference of the earth, and was not far off. Furthermore,
he stated that the earth is but a speck in reference to the vastness of
space. His works were an important part of medieval scholasticism, therefore
were widely known. There are earlier references to earth being a sphere as
well.

DF:

If you are interested (want to laugh a bit) check out this link: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth_society

These are people who still seem to think the earth is flat. According to 
them, the earth is a flat disk accelerating upwards at 9.80 m/s^2 - which is 
why we have "gravity". They have explanations for lunar eclipses, the motion 
of the stars, and even why a ship will disappear over the horizon when 
sailing away. All the answers are far-fetched.... or maybe not ... since we 
can't be 100% sure about anything. :)

The point is that we can say that all these dates are not provable 100% - 
which is a fair statement, I'm not disagreeing with it - but at what point do 
we start to favor one viewpoint over another? And at what point do we abandon 
the current viewpoint (or at least patch it up a bit to fit all of the 
evidence)?

Thanks!


      
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>From fiveacorns AT yahoo.com  Wed Apr 23 00:23:11 2008
Return-Path: <fiveacorns AT yahoo.com>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id AA2CD4C015; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:23:11 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on malecky
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE
        autolearn=disabled version=3.2.3
Received: from web38902.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web38902.mail.mud.yahoo.com
        [209.191.125.108])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 06A824C011
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:23:09 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: (qmail 61210 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Apr 2008 04:23:09 -0000
X-YMail-OSG: 
1N7MO5EVM1m1GPEX55afl1zPFbpZV9uzVRHttHrUVMHPOVz8tM7ivht5HpZQz_IpWw--
Received: from [74.70.224.221] by web38902.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP;
        Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:23:09 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/902.40 YahooMailWebService/0.7.185
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:23:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dirk Frulla <fiveacorns AT yahoo.com>
To: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>,
        b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <697958.60608.qm AT web38902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] repost of full question
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Biblical Hebrew Forum <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 04:23:11 -0000

K Randolph,=0A=0AMy appologies for upsetting you.=0A=0AHowever, what was it=
 that upset you? I just spent the last 45 minutes re-reading all of my post=
s to this mailing list and I am struggling to find where I became disrepect=
ful. Does it bother you that I would question statements made by someone in=
 authority? You are right, I am a computer programmer. So I should assume t=
hat computer programmers should stay clear of mailing lists like this - at =
least until we've been through 4+ years of Biblical Hebrew? Maybe it would =
be beneifical to have a filtering process for people who would like to post=
 here. When someone signs up, maybe it would be good for a moderator to ask=
 what that person does for a living. True, I wake up in the morning and pro=
gram computers, but does that mean that I can't take an interest in the Bib=
le and the messages written in its pages and ask questions on inconsistenci=
es that I see? It doesn't bother me to disagree with someone in authority. =
I have several Jr. programmers working with me,
 and I would be a liar if I said they never questioned my opinion on matter=
s - and I would be a fool if I never listened to their concerns. None of us=
 are so "big" that we can't be questioned. Dr. Furuli has done a lot of wor=
k. It is possible to still respect his work and yet question it at the same=
 time. In fact, after his last message, I was going to email him offline fr=
om the mailing list asking how to obtain a copy of his book. I *am* interes=
ted in these 90 anomolies - and the nature of the anomolies.=0A=0AYou seem =
to think that I am "lecturing" you (or others). Why? Because I am questioni=
ng certain statements? I never said "You are wrong!" or "It's got to be thi=
s way!". I have said, "I would really like consistency" and "I disagree". I=
f you think that is "lecturing" or in some way being disrespectful, then I'=
m sure this entire mailing list is full of lecturing, disrectful people.=0A=
=0AIf you go back to my original post, I came to this list with a question =
regarding Biblical Hebrew based off of the research I have done somewhere e=
lse. I do have an "agenda" - and that is to learn more and come to a viewpo=
int that is consistent with all the information. YOU don't have to come to =
my viewpoint - the so-called "agenda" involves me, not you. My original pos=
t had 3 questions, all of which were regarding Hebrew. I wasn't too concern=
ed about the first two, but Dr. Furuli did actually touch on them in his la=
st post. Actually, I've had some research materials and references provided=
 to me off-line from the mailing list. These materials have been helpful an=
d I appreciate them. They touch on the first two of my questions as well. =
=0A=0AAs far as the third question, it was regarding Daniel 9:2 and the spe=
cific word rendered "fulfill". Nobody really touched on that word, except y=
ou in your last email when you wrote: "Now you, a computer programmer, on t=
he basis of Strong's numbers and the definitions he wrote (he did not have =
a reputation as a linguist) are lecturing us?" - OK, why didn't you say tha=
t it was an unreliable source in the first place? Did you realize that woul=
d have been an answer? Do you have another source that IS more reliable? Is=
 the definition of that word incorrect for some reason? Incomplete for some=
 reason? =0A=0AThe point is, nobody said anything toward the actual questio=
n I asked. So what is wrong with me re-stating my question with different w=
ords? I agreed with Dr. Harold Holmyard and explicitly said I did not have =
an issue with *him*, and then re-stated my question and said unambigiously =
what my issue was. So I'm not sure how I could have been "lecuring" him. Dr=
. Furuli jumped into the conversation because he detected I was looking for=
 agreement among different sources. Unfortunately, he quoted me 2 Chronicle=
s 36:21 which uses the same word as in Daniel - so it just made my question=
 stand out in my mind even further. Finally, Dr. Furuli stated that he has =
expressed his opionion about these scriptures as a linguist. Did I come lec=
ture him about that?=0A=0A=0AAs far as Persian history - agreed. I could us=
e more knowledge about Persian history. I have it on my list of things to d=
o. However, I repectfully disagree that my knowledge of Persian history (or=
 lack thereof) should be any reason for me to not continue to ask questions=
 regarding this issue. And if I see logical inconsistencies, then I shouldn=
't be afraid to speak up, even if I am wrong. Also, it is not improper for =
me to expect explanations for the answer I get.=0A=0A=0AYou wrote:=0A"Secon=
dly, you are insisting on a sequence of events that the prophecies do not."=
=0A=0AMy sequence of events came from Jeremiah 25:12, and Jeremiah 29:10. P=
lease, how did I misrepreset the sequence of events described there?=0A=0AY=
ou wrote:=0A"Third, while you may be correct about the Babylonian records (=
did they mention the acting king Belshazzar?), how good are those concernin=
g the Medo-Persian period? From what I read, very poor."=0A=0AI'm not sure =
what you mean here. You mean the adminstrative/business documents?=0A=0A=0A=
=0AYou wrote:=0A"Finally, if there is a difference between Biblical dating,=
 and secular=0Ahistorical consensus, I trust the Biblical dating far more t=
han historical=0Aconsensus, therefore question the historical consensus. Th=
at's my personal=0Apractice, others disagree."=0A=0AFair enough. I think I =
understand you. I have no problems with you saying that you hold the Bible =
in higher regard than the historical consensus. From your Biblical perpecti=
ve, then, what is your date for the fall of Jerusalem? Or do you think that=
 it is an un-answerable question?=0A=0A=0A=0AYours truely, with an agenda, =
:)=0ADirk Frulla=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: K Randolph =
<kwrandolph AT gmail.com>=0ATo: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>=0ASent: =
Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:54:48 PM=0ASubject: Re: [b-hebrew] repost of full=
 question=0A=0ADear Dirk:=0ADr. Rolf Furuli is a professor teaching Hebrew =
and Semitic languages at a=0Auniversity. Dr. Harold Holmyard really knows o=
riginal languages,=0Atranslations and many cross references in the Bible. A=
s for me, my only=0Aclaim to fame is that I have read the Old Testament man=
y times through in=0AHebrew, and wrote a dictionary for my personal use to =
help me in=0Aunderstanding the text. Now you, a computer programmer, on the=
 basis of=0AStrong's numbers and the definitions he wrote (he did not have =
a reputation=0Aas a linguist) are lecturing us?=0A=0AFirst of all, you are =
missing a king, Darius the Mede. The Bible does not=0Asay how long he reign=
ed, just that he was 62 years old when he took over the=0Akingdom (Daniel 6=
:1 (5:31 in English)). According to prophecy the Medes were=0Ato be in asce=
ndency first, to be followed by the Persians. But according to=0AIsaiah 44:=
24=9645:4, Cyrus, not Darius, was to restore the temple and have=0Apeople r=
eturn. Therefore Darius the Mede, who continued the Babylonian=0ACaptivity,=
 who was nominally the king of Babylon by means of conquest, was=0Anot to b=
e connected with the end of the exile, nor the completion of the 70=0Ayears=
 desolation.=0A=0ASecondly, you are insisting on a sequence of events that =
the prophecies do=0Anot.=0A=0AThird, while you may be correct about the Bab=
ylonian records (did they=0Amention the acting king Belshazzar?), how good =
are those concerning the=0AMedo-Persian period? From what I read, very poor=
.=0A=0AFinally, if there is a difference between Biblical dating, and secul=
ar=0Ahistorical consensus, I trust the Biblical dating far more than histor=
ical=0Aconsensus, therefore question the historical consensus. That's my pe=
rsonal=0Apractice, others disagree.=0A=0AThis is my 2=A2, and I do not inte=
nd to argue the point. You sound like a=0Aperson with an agenda, out to pro=
ve your theory. It that's the case, count=0Ame out.=0A=0AYours, Karl W. Ran=
dolph.=0A_______________________________________________=0Ab-hebrew mailing=
 list=0Ab-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org=0Ahttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/b-hebrew=0A=0A=0A      ________________________________________________=
____________________________________=0ABe a better friend, newshound, and =
=0Aknow-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_=
ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>From pporta AT oham.net  Wed Apr 23 01:50:15 2008
Return-Path: <pporta AT oham.net>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id 2A2C34C01B; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:50:15 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on malecky
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RDNS_NONE,STOX_REPLY_TYPE
        autolearn=disabled version=3.2.3
Received: from servidor.c2001.com (unknown [89.207.232.140])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213094C014
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:50:11 -0400 
(EDT)
Received: from 19.pool80-102-193.dynamic.orange.es ([80.102.193.19] helo=pc01)
        by servidor.c2001.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.60)
        (envelope-from <pporta AT oham.net>)
        id 1JoY1m-0005ww-NN; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:00:23 +0200
Message-ID: <001301c8a505$dbc54fe0$13c16650@pc01>
From: <pporta AT oham.net>
To: "B. M. Rocine" <brocine AT twcny.rr.com>,
        "B-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
References: <480E134A.2070506 AT comcast.net> <480E9AA8.9060400 AT twcny.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:49:54 +0200
Organization: oham
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Qohelet chapter 12
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Biblical Hebrew Forum <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:50:15 -0000

But... does it make sense "remember your health"?

What would this really mean, then?
Within this viewpoint, what would be the meaning of Qoh 12:1? Maybe an 
advice to youth not to fall in vices (like drugs, sex, alcohol, 
laziness...)?

Pere Porta
_______________

> I am not a big fan of emendations to the text, but I would consider, in
> the case of 12:1's BWoR)eYKf
>
> bet-holem vav-resh-aleph-seghol-yod-khof-qamets "your creators"
>
> to be possibly B:RiY)Kf
>
> bet-shewa-resh-hireq-yod-aleph-khof-qamets "your health".
>
> The context clearly supports "your health," and the graphic distinction
> between the two is slight.  I have not looked into any
> traditions/commentaries which may or may not support this emendation.
>
> Shalom,
> Bryan
>
> Ron Snider wrote:
>>> I am not in the habit of looking at foreign translations of the HB.
>>> In my Qoren edition of the TN"K the word BOR)-EY-KA is written with a
>>> yod [so also in the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia] and I see it as
>>> plural. Indeed, "Remember your Creator in the days of your youth"
>>> does not make as much sense as "Keep in mind your forebears [some
>>> old, some dead] in the days of your youth".
>>> I would relate this BR) to the BAR, 'son, child', of Proverbs 31:2
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I do agree that the participle is plural, other than than I disagree
>> completely with the rest of your response.  First, the Qal stem is only
>> used of the creative activity of God in the OT.  Second, the plural may
>> well be plural since Elohiym is plural.  Third, the term is never used
>> in the Qal of human creations, which rules out the idea of forebears.
>> Fourth, immediate context from the previous verses suggests that this is
>> advice to a young person with respect to how he lives his life and the
>> fact that God will ultimately judge every action.  Fifth, remembering
>> your forbears has nothing to do with whether or not one grows old and
>> enjoys life, Solomon has already stated repeatedly in this book that
>> real life comes from God.  Eccles. 2:25-26, 5:18-20, 7:14, 9:1,9
>>
>> Lastly, while you may not feel the need to consult other translations,
>> when you digress dramatically from the orthodox understanding of a
>> verse, the burden of proof is on you to document your assertions.  One
>> cannot merely say that the word means something and expect others to
>> simply accept it without proof.  Since this term only appears in the Qal
>> partciple plural one time, proof is probably not available.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Ron Snider,
>> Pastor-teacher
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> b-hebrew mailing list
>> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> B.M. Rocine
> Living Word Church
> 6101 Court St. Rd.
> Syracuse, NY 13206
> W:  (315) 437-6744
>
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>