Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net>]

Dirk,

O.K., I understand your theory, but I don't think you get much help from 
Dan 9:2. Some translations don't use idiomatic English. Here is the 
Holman Christian Standard Bible:

2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the books 
according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet that the 
number of years for the desolation of Jerusalem would be 70.

HH: Here is the New Living Translation (NLT):

2 During the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, learned from reading 
the word of the Lord, as revealed to Jeremiah the prophet, that 
Jerusalem must lie desolate for seventy years.

HH: Here is the New Century Version:

2 During Darius' first year as king, I, Daniel, was reading the 
Scriptures. I saw that the Lord told Jeremiah that Jerusalem would be 
empty ruins for seventy years.

HH: Here is the Message:

In the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, was meditating on the 
Scriptures that gave, according to the Word of God to the prophet 
Jeremiah, the number of years that Jerusalem had to lie in ruins, 
namely, seventy.

HH: Here is the New American Bible (NAB):

2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, tried to understand in the 
Scriptures the counting of the years of which the LORD spoke to the 
prophet Jeremiah: that for the ruins of Jerusalem seventy years must be 
fulfilled.

HH: Daniel's prophecy of 490 years for Israel (70 7's) is based on the 
earlier prophecy of 70 years for Israel? To make the 70 years not 
necessarily relevant for Israel would make the 490 years not necessarily 
so, but they are clearly all about Israel.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard


> Thanks for responding again!
>
> Sorry, I'm not good at going through the emails and quoting, so I'll just 
> quote up here.
>
> You said: "HH: Isn't that what NIV is saying: the end of the desolations 
> correspond to the end of the 70 years?"
>
> If it were saying that, then I wouldn't have an issue. I am saying it looks like Daniel 
> 9:2 is saying, when "fulfill" is left in the scripture, that the end of the 
> 70 years would bring an end of the desolations, BUT that's it. Not an equating of the 
> two time periods. Not saying that Jerusalem would lie in ruins for 70 years, just that 
> the end of one period would, by consequense, bring the end of the other period. Let's 
> just say (for the sake of argument/illustration) that Babylon destroyed Jerusalem in, 
> say, 549 - 10 years before Babylon itself fell to the Persians. So Jerusalem would be 
> desolate only 10 years (maybe a little longer if you factor in the trip from Babylon 
> back to Jerusalem). In this case, I would still say that Jeremiah was right. Even 
> though Jerusalem was lying desolate - paying off its sabbaths as 2 Chronicles 36:21 
> says, for only 10 years, the **servitude** of the **many nations** to Babylon would 
> have started long ago - when it
>  started conquering to make vassal states out of the nations. I would even 
> argue that the servitude of the many nations started before Jerusalem was 
> made a vassal, since Assyria was take in 609. The focus in Jeremiah seems 
> pointed toward Babylon and its reign over the nations.
>
> Yes, I agree, Judah was one of those nations. And it did become desolated, as Jeremiah states. But I don't see where the seventy years is equated with the desolations of Jerusalem - it seems to only be equated to the "servitude" of all the "nations round about" (Jer 25:9). 
>
> Here is Jeremiah 25:11 from the KJV:
>
> "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations 
> shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."
> Because it is essentially two sentences here, I see:
> 1) "this whole land" will become a desolation - happened in 587
> 2) "these nations" will "serve" the king of Babylon 70 years.
>
> The two halves of the sentence - at least in every English Bible that I've 
> seen - renders them as two separate thoughts, with the 70 years only 
> attaching to the servitude.
>
> UNLESS there is some different way to read it in HEBREW - which is why I am 
> posting to this mailing list.
>
> Here is the NIV of Daniel 9:2-
> in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, 
> according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the 
> ****desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years****.
>
> It looks like it is saying "desolations = 70 years". I am saying "desolations = 50 
> years" (587/exile - 537/retrurn), but the SERVITUDE of "these nations" = 70 years, as 
> Jeremiah states.
>
> They were not all subjucated at once, for sure, but from the start of the 
> Babylon's reign up until its reign ended would be 70 years. You could round 
> it if you like. If it makes you uncomfortable to say its an exact 70 years. 
> It doesn't matter to me, I am just arguing from the grammar I see in BOTH 
> places in Jeremiah, that the 70 years applies to Babylon's reign.
>
> I guess another way to put it is, the 70 years applies to the years of 
> Babylon's reign, but the desolations of Jerusalem is a sub-set of that.
>
> Here is Daniel 9:2 from the Engish Standard Version:
>
> in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number 
> of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, 
> **must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem**, namely, seventy 
> years.
>
> Notice that in this version it is not equating the two, only that when the 70 
> years end, then it would free the way for the desolations to end, regardless 
> of how long Jerusalem was lying desolate.
>
> Here is Daniel 9:2 from the American Standard Version:
>
>  in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years whereof the word of Jehovah came to Jeremiah the prophet, **for the accomplishing of the desolations of Jerusalem**, even seventy years. 
>
> Same thought. And yet you find other versions that do this (Contemporary 
> English Version):
>
> Some years later, Darius the Mede, who was the son of Xerxes, had become king of 
> Babylonia. And during his first year as king, I found out from studying the writings of 
> the prophets that the LORD had said to Jeremiah, " Jerusalem will lie in ruins for 
> seventy years."
>
> Now, there is nothing in Daniel 9:2 about Xerxes when checking the interlinear. So this is definitely adding a bit of info and paraphrasing a bit. But it agrees with the NIV to equate Jerusalem's "ruins" with the 70 years. 
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net>
> To: b-hebrew-lists.ibiblio.org <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 3:06:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] repost of full question
>
> Dirk,
>   
> > Thanks for responding!
> >  
> >
> > The question regarding Daniel 9:2 is closely related to the questions I had 
> > from Jeremiah because Daniel makes SPECIFIC reference that he got his 
> > information from Jeremiah. To me, it seems very important to take that into 
> > consideration when trying to figure out what exactly Daniel meant when he 
> > wrote chapter 9, verse 2.
> >  
> > Which is the main reason why I was also stated the two initial quesitions regarding the grammar of Jeremiah 25:11 and Jeremiah 29:10. I don't know Hebrew, which is why I am posting to this list.
> >
> > Here is what I mean in summary:
> > ALL of the Bibles that I have ever seen - ALL of them render Jeremiah 25:11 (the very first reference to the 70 years prophecy in the Bible) as a two part thought. That is, some of them render it as a compound sentence joined with ", and"; however, most render it with a semicolon or a period. It doesn't matter how you do it, they all mean that there are two separate thoughts expressed. I've gotten ahold of one Hebraist, and he said that there are clearly two thoughts there even in Hebrew - which makes sense because every Bible renders it as two separate thoughts. This means grammatically the seventy years attaches to the "servitude" not the "desolations". 
> > Most Bibles render Jeremiah 29:10 (except maybe 2 or 3) as "for Babylon". Some of them even render it as possessive - "Babylon's seventy years"
> > So when I read Jeremiah 25:11 and Jeremiah 29:10, grammatically speaking, 
> > Jeremiah NEVER equates the 70 years with Jerusalem's desolations.
> >     
>
> HH: But he does equate the 70 years with Jerusalem's desolations because 
> Israel is one of these nations:
>
> Jer. 25:17 So I took the cup from the LORD’S hand, and made all the 
> nations to whom the LORD sent me drink it:
> Jer. 25:18 Jerusalem and the towns of Judah, its kings and officials, to 
> make them a desolation and a waste, an object of hissing and of cursing, 
> as they are today;
> Jer. 25:19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his servants, his officials, and all 
> his people;
> Jer. 25:20 all the mixed people; all the kings of the land of Uz; all 
> the kings of the land of the Philistines—Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the 
> remnant of Ashdod;
> Jer. 25:21 Edom, Moab, and the Ammonites;
> Jer. 25:22 all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon, and the kings 
> of the coastland across the sea;
> Jer. 25:23 Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who have shaven temples;
> Jer. 25:24 all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed 
> peoples that live in the desert;
> Jer. 25:25 all the kings of Zimri, all the kings of Elam, and all the 
> kings of Media;
> Jer. 25:26 all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another, 
> and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And 
> after them the king of Sheshach shall drink.
>
>
>   
> >  The emphasis is always on Babylon. In Jeremiah 25 it is seventy years of "servitude" for "these nations" (plural). 
> >     
>
>
> HH: Yes, and Israel is the first nation mentioned in the list of the 
> nations.
>
>
>   
> > In Jeremiah 29:10 it is seventy years "for Babylon" - putting emphasis on Babylon's supremacy. 
> > Honestly, Daniel may not have even had Jeremiah 25. He was exiled as part of the first wave (Daniel 1:1), 
> > as you had noted. So he may have only had Jeremiah 29 - which was a letter to the exiles. But even if we 
> > assume he read what was later to became Jeremiah 25, then IT STILL points to servitude for "these 
> > nations" and seventy years "for Babylon". Nothing that I have read specifically attaches the 
> > desolations of Jerusalem with the 70 years, IN JEREMIAH.
> >  
> >     
>
>
> HH: Israel was one of "these nations."
>
>
>   
> >  
> > Now when I read the NIV translating Daniel as saying the 70 years = desolations of Jerusalem, I am confused because he specifically references Jeremiah.
> >  
> >     
>
>
> HH: But Jeremiah implies what he says.
>
>   
> >  
> > Let's come at it another way. This is another dimension to it that is confusing to me. When Daniel wrote chapter 9, the Jews were still in Jerusalem.
> >     
>
>
> HH: You mean they were still in Babylon.
>
>
>   
> >  They had not been released yet - that's the whole reason for his prayer in 
> > chapter 9. Daniel has just witnessed the end of the Babylonian empire in 
> > chapter 5. If you go back to Jeremiah chapter 25, read verse 12, and then go 
> > back to Jeremiah 29 and read the verses after verse 10, there was an order 
> > that was to be followed - a clear sequence of events.
> >  
> > FIRST the 70 years would end 
> > THEN Babylon would be called to account 
> > THEN the Jews would return to God - with repentence, fasting, etc. 
> > THEN the Jews would return to their land
> > At the time Daniel wrote the prayer recored in chapter 9, the Jews were on 
> > step #3 - remember Babylon was called to account in ch. 5.
> >     
>
>
> HH: O.K., but prophecies are not necessarily limited to the period to 
> which they seem to address. Jeremiah 29:11-14 can refer to the return 
> from Babylon in the sixth century but can also apply to eschatology. The 
> basic promise is that God would bring them back.
>
>
>   
> >  It is interesting that Daniel set out to do exactly what came next on the 
> > list of event - repent and pray to God. The Jews were on step #3, NOT step 4.
> >     
>
>
> HH: O.K.
>
>
>   
> >  That would come a few years later when they got back to their land. Until 
> > then, it would remain desolated. But look, step #1 was the 70 years ending. 
> > So the 70 years ended at least 2-3 years before the desolations did. How can 
> > they be the same period?
> >  
> >     
>
>
> HH: This seems overly detailed. As I said in my last post, the 70 years 
> can be a round number.
>
>   
> >  
> > See what I mean? 
> >  
> >     
>
>
>
> HH: Yes, I see what you mean, but it doesn't seem a problem. God can 
> give a general figure.
>
>
>   
> >  
> > That is why I am having such a hard time with the NIV. Now if you look at an interlinear for Daniel 9:2, you'll notice the word rendered "fulfill", "complete", "accomplish" is strong number H4390. I've looked it up in a Hebrew dictionary and it definitely means "bring to and end" - "accomplish" - "fulfill". I may not know Hebrew, but words are words because they have meaning. And unless Jeremiah was using some sort of idiom, then the NIV left out any sense of the word rendered "fulfill".
> >  
> >     
>
>
> HH: If the number of years to be fulfilled for the desolations of 
> Jerusalem were seventy years, then the desolations would last 70 years. 
> I don't see the problem.
>
>   
> >  
> > When the word is included, it brings the readers attention to the end of the desolations corresponding to the end of the 70 years. Now THAT matches the order set forth in Jeremiah. 
> >  
> >     
>
>
> HH: Isn't that what NIV is saying: the end of the desolations correspond 
> to the end of the 70 years?
>   
> > Just a side note. The seventy years could be a round. However, it is not necessary. If you take Jeremiah at face value - as 70 years of servitude for "these nations" to the "king of Babylon", then you can start with the full conquering of the Babylonian empire in 609 BC.... 609-539 = 70 years exactly.  
> >  
> >     
>
> HH: Fine.
>
> Yours,
> Harold Holmyard
>   
> >  
> >  
> >     
>
>
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