Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Dirk Frulla <fiveacorns AT yahoo.com>]

Thanks for responding again!

Sorry, I'm not good at going through the emails and quoting, so I'll just 
quote up here.

You said: "HH: Isn't that what NIV is saying: the end of the desolations 
correspond to the end of the 70 years?"

If it were saying that, then I wouldn't have an issue. I am saying it looks 
like Daniel 9:2 is saying, when "fulfill" is left in the scripture, that the 
end of the 70 years would bring an end of the desolations, BUT that's it. Not 
an equating of the two time periods. Not saying that Jerusalem would lie in 
ruins for 70 years, just that the end of one period would, by consequense, 
bring the end of the other period. Let's just say (for the sake of 
argument/illustration) that Babylon destroyed Jerusalem in, say, 549 - 10 
years before Babylon itself fell to the Persians. So Jerusalem would be 
desolate only 10 years (maybe a little longer if you factor in the trip from 
Babylon back to Jerusalem). In this case, I would still say that Jeremiah was 
right. Even though Jerusalem was lying desolate - paying off its sabbaths as 
2 Chronicles 36:21 says, for only 10 years, the **servitude** of the **many 
nations** to Babylon would have started long ago - when it
 started conquering to make vassal states out of the nations. I would even 
argue that the servitude of the many nations started before Jerusalem was 
made a vassal, since Assyria was take in 609. The focus in Jeremiah seems 
pointed toward Babylon and its reign over the nations.

Yes, I agree, Judah was one of those nations. And it did become desolated, as 
Jeremiah states. But I don't see where the seventy years is equated with the 
desolations of Jerusalem - it seems to only be equated to the "servitude" of 
all the "nations round about" (Jer 25:9). 

Here is Jeremiah 25:11 from the KJV:

"And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these 
nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."
Because it is essentially two sentences here, I see:
1) "this whole land" will become a desolation - happened in 587
2) "these nations" will "serve" the king of Babylon 70 years.

The two halves of the sentence - at least in every English Bible that I've 
seen - renders them as two separate thoughts, with the 70 years only 
attaching to the servitude.

UNLESS there is some different way to read it in HEBREW - which is why I am 
posting to this mailing list.

Here is the NIV of Daniel 9:2-
in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, 
according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the 
****desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years****.

It looks like it is saying "desolations = 70 years". I am saying "desolations 
= 50 years" (587/exile - 537/retrurn), but the SERVITUDE of "these nations" = 
70 years, as Jeremiah states.

They were not all subjucated at once, for sure, but from the start of the 
Babylon's reign up until its reign ended would be 70 years. You could round 
it if you like. If it makes you uncomfortable to say its an exact 70 years. 
It doesn't matter to me, I am just arguing from the grammar I see in BOTH 
places in Jeremiah, that the 70 years applies to Babylon's reign.

I guess another way to put it is, the 70 years applies to the years of 
Babylon's reign, but the desolations of Jerusalem is a sub-set of that.

Here is Daniel 9:2 from the Engish Standard Version:

in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number 
of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, 
**must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem**, namely, seventy 
years.

Notice that in this version it is not equating the two, only that when the 70 
years end, then it would free the way for the desolations to end, regardless 
of how long Jerusalem was lying desolate.

Here is Daniel 9:2 from the American Standard Version:

 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number 
of the years whereof the word of Jehovah came to Jeremiah the prophet, **for 
the accomplishing of the desolations of Jerusalem**, even seventy years. 

Same thought. And yet you find other versions that do this (Contemporary 
English Version):

Some years later, Darius the Mede, who was the son of Xerxes, had become king 
of Babylonia. And during his first year as king, I found out from studying 
the writings of the prophets that the LORD had said to Jeremiah, " Jerusalem 
will lie in ruins for seventy years."

Now, there is nothing in Daniel 9:2 about Xerxes when checking the 
interlinear. So this is definitely adding a bit of info and paraphrasing a 
bit. But it agrees with the NIV to equate Jerusalem's "ruins" with the 70 
years. 



Thanks!



----- Original Message ----
From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net>
To: b-hebrew-lists.ibiblio.org <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 3:06:43 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] repost of full question

Dirk,
> Thanks for responding!
>  
>
> The question regarding Daniel 9:2 is closely related to the questions I had 
> from Jeremiah because Daniel makes SPECIFIC reference that he got his 
> information from Jeremiah. To me, it seems very important to take that into 
> consideration when trying to figure out what exactly Daniel meant when he 
> wrote chapter 9, verse 2.
>  
> Which is the main reason why I was also stated the two initial quesitions 
> regarding the grammar of Jeremiah 25:11 and Jeremiah 29:10. I don't know 
> Hebrew, which is why I am posting to this list.
>
> Here is what I mean in summary:
> ALL of the Bibles that I have ever seen - ALL of them render Jeremiah 25:11 
> (the very first reference to the 70 years prophecy in the Bible) as a two 
> part thought. That is, some of them render it as a compound sentence joined 
> with ", and"; however, most render it with a semicolon or a period. It 
> doesn't matter how you do it, they all mean that there are two separate 
> thoughts expressed. I've gotten ahold of one Hebraist, and he said that 
> there are clearly two thoughts there even in Hebrew - which makes sense 
> because every Bible renders it as two separate thoughts. This means 
> grammatically the seventy years attaches to the "servitude" not the 
> "desolations". 
> Most Bibles render Jeremiah 29:10 (except maybe 2 or 3) as "for Babylon". 
> Some of them even render it as possessive - "Babylon's seventy years"
> So when I read Jeremiah 25:11 and Jeremiah 29:10, grammatically speaking, 
> Jeremiah NEVER equates the 70 years with Jerusalem's desolations.

HH: But he does equate the 70 years with Jerusalem's desolations because 
Israel is one of these nations:

Jer. 25:17 So I took the cup from the LORD’S hand, and made all the 
nations to whom the LORD sent me drink it:
Jer. 25:18 Jerusalem and the towns of Judah, its kings and officials, to 
make them a desolation and a waste, an object of hissing and of cursing, 
as they are today;
Jer. 25:19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his servants, his officials, and all 
his people;
Jer. 25:20 all the mixed people; all the kings of the land of Uz; all 
the kings of the land of the Philistines—Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the 
remnant of Ashdod;
Jer. 25:21 Edom, Moab, and the Ammonites;
Jer. 25:22 all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon, and the kings 
of the coastland across the sea;
Jer. 25:23 Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who have shaven temples;
Jer. 25:24 all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed 
peoples that live in the desert;
Jer. 25:25 all the kings of Zimri, all the kings of Elam, and all the 
kings of Media;
Jer. 25:26 all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another, 
and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And 
after them the king of Sheshach shall drink.


>  The emphasis is always on Babylon. In Jeremiah 25 it is seventy years of 
> "servitude" for "these nations" (plural). 


HH: Yes, and Israel is the first nation mentioned in the list of the 
nations.


> In Jeremiah 29:10 it is seventy years "for Babylon" - putting emphasis on 
> Babylon's supremacy. Honestly, Daniel may not have even had Jeremiah 25. He 
> was exiled as part of the first wave (Daniel 1:1), as you had noted. So he 
> may have only had Jeremiah 29 - which was a letter to the exiles. But even 
> if we assume he read what was later to became Jeremiah 25, then IT STILL 
> points to servitude for "these nations" and seventy years "for Babylon". 
> Nothing that I have read specifically attaches the desolations of Jerusalem 
> with the 70 years, IN JEREMIAH.
>  


HH: Israel was one of "these nations."


>  
> Now when I read the NIV translating Daniel as saying the 70 years = 
> desolations of Jerusalem, I am confused because he specifically references 
> Jeremiah.
>  


HH: But Jeremiah implies what he says.

>  
> Let's come at it another way. This is another dimension to it that is 
> confusing to me. When Daniel wrote chapter 9, the Jews were still in 
> Jerusalem.


HH: You mean they were still in Babylon.


>  They had not been released yet - that's the whole reason for his prayer in 
> chapter 9. Daniel has just witnessed the end of the Babylonian empire in 
> chapter 5. If you go back to Jeremiah chapter 25, read verse 12, and then 
> go back to Jeremiah 29 and read the verses after verse 10, there was an 
> order that was to be followed - a clear sequence of events.
>  
> FIRST the 70 years would end 
> THEN Babylon would be called to account 
> THEN the Jews would return to God - with repentence, fasting, etc. 
> THEN the Jews would return to their land
> At the time Daniel wrote the prayer recored in chapter 9, the Jews were on 
> step #3 - remember Babylon was called to account in ch. 5.


HH: O.K., but prophecies are not necessarily limited to the period to 
which they seem to address. Jeremiah 29:11-14 can refer to the return 
from Babylon in the sixth century but can also apply to eschatology. The 
basic promise is that God would bring them back.


>  It is interesting that Daniel set out to do exactly what came next on the 
> list of event - repent and pray to God. The Jews were on step #3, NOT step 
> 4.


HH: O.K.


>  That would come a few years later when they got back to their land. Until 
> then, it would remain desolated. But look, step #1 was the 70 years ending. 
> So the 70 years ended at least 2-3 years before the desolations did. How 
> can they be the same period?
>  


HH: This seems overly detailed. As I said in my last post, the 70 years 
can be a round number.

>  
> See what I mean? 
>  



HH: Yes, I see what you mean, but it doesn't seem a problem. God can 
give a general figure.


>  
> That is why I am having such a hard time with the NIV. Now if you look at 
> an interlinear for Daniel 9:2, you'll notice the word rendered "fulfill", 
> "complete", "accomplish" is strong number H4390. I've looked it up in a 
> Hebrew dictionary and it definitely means "bring to and end" - "accomplish" 
> - "fulfill". I may not know Hebrew, but words are words because they have 
> meaning. And unless Jeremiah was using some sort of idiom, then the NIV 
> left out any sense of the word rendered "fulfill".
>  


HH: If the number of years to be fulfilled for the desolations of 
Jerusalem were seventy years, then the desolations would last 70 years. 
I don't see the problem.

>  
> When the word is included, it brings the readers attention to the end of 
> the desolations corresponding to the end of the 70 years. Now THAT matches 
> the order set forth in Jeremiah. 
>  


HH: Isn't that what NIV is saying: the end of the desolations correspond 
to the end of the 70 years?
> Just a side note. The seventy years could be a round. However, it is not 
> necessary. If you take Jeremiah at face value - as 70 years of servitude 
> for "these nations" to the "king of Babylon", then you can start with the 
> full conquering of the Babylonian empire in 609 BC.... 609-539 = 70 years 
> exactly.  
>  

HH: Fine.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard
>  
>  


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I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

I do believe that the 4th year of Jehoiakim/ 1st year of Neb. is 606/605. 
That's fine. I also can see the way that Daniel 1:1 (dated the 3rd year of 
Jehoiakim) could actually mean the 4th, if you take into consideration that 
Daniel might be using the accension-year system, while Jeremiah is not, so 
that year would mark the first (smaller) exile and initial servitude of 
Israel.

The prophecy is primarily about Israel, and directed toward Israel as well. 
Agreed. But the duration of the period seems to be measured against more than 
one nation (Judah), rather many nations (these nations, verse 9, 11).

Jeremiah 27:11 (NIV)
But if any nation will bow its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and 
serve him, I will let that nation remain in its own land to till it and to 
live there, declares the LORD." ' "

This seems to indicate that if a nation were to serve the king of Babylon as 
a vassal, it would remain on its own land. Verse 12 continues:

I gave the same message to Zedekiah king of Judah. I said, "Bow your neck 
under the yoke of the king of Babylon; serve him and his people, and you will 
live. 13 Why will you and your people die by the sword, famine and plague 
with which the LORD has threatened **any** nation that will not serve the 
king of Babylon?

I think any means any ... or in Jeremiah 25:9, all these nations "round 
about".

If Jeremiah wrote chapter 25 in the 1st year of Neb, and this was 605, and 
Assyria was crushed in 609, why would Jeremiah have to list it? It was 
already serving Babylon. "God's wrath" didn't need to be poured out on it - 
it was already done.

Jeremiah 25:18, does put Jerusalem first on the list, but it also mentions: 
"Jerusalem and the towns of Judah, its kings and officials, to make them a 
ruin and an object of horror and scorn and cursing, **as they are today**;" - 
so something had already started in Jerusalem too.


Thanks for the interesting, interesting emails!

Dirk






----- Original Message ----
From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net>
To: b-hebrew-lists.ibiblio.org <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 3:20:30 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] repost of full question

Dirk,
> I meant it to read:
>
> Just a side note. The seventy years could be a round. However, it is not 
> necessary. If you take Jeremiah at face value - as 70 years of servitude 
> for "these nations" to the "king of Babylon", then you can start with the 
> full conquering of the ***ASSYRIAN*** empire in 609 BC.... 609-539 = 70 
> years exactly.
>

HH: Well, I better retract my "Fine," since you do not seem to be making
a valid point now that I look at the details. I thought you meant
Babylon's conquering of Israel, but even that may not be right

HH: The prophecy is primarily about Israel, especially in Dan 9:2 but
also in Jeremiah 25 and 29. In Jer 29:10 I would assume that it was
Babylon's 70 years of hegemony over Israel that was in view.

HH: What is more significant is that Assyria is not even mentioned by
name in the list of nations that Babylon would rule over in Jer 25:17-26.

HH: The dating is clear in Jer 25:1:

Jer. 25:1 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of
Judah, in the fourth year of King Jehoiakim son of Josiah of Judah (that
was the first year of King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon),

HH: The fourth year of Jehoiakim was 606 or 605 B.C., but Jeremiah
prophesies of something that is going to happen in the future. So he is
not prophesying the destruction of  Assyria earlier in 609 B.C:

Jer. 25:8 Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts: Because you have not
obeyed my words,
Jer. 25:9 I am going to send for all the tribes of the north, says the
LORD, even for King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon, my servant, and I will
bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these
nations around; I will utterly destroy them, and make them an object of
horror and of hissing, and an everlasting disgrace.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard
>
>

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Dirk,
>
>
> If Jeremiah wrote chapter 25 in the 1st year of Neb, and this was 605, and 
> Assyria was crushed in 609, why would Jeremiah have to list it? It was 
> already serving Babylon. "God's wrath" didn't need to be poured out on it - 
> it was already done.
>

HH: But then its destruction is not part of the prophecy, which speaks
about what the Lord will do, not what he has done.

HH: But another point is that Jeremiah did not necessarily write the
prophecy that year. The date is when the incident happened that he
writes about. One suggestion of this is in v. 13:

Jer. 25:13 I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered
against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied
against all the nations.

HH: The book was written later than the prophecy was given, I would think.


> Jeremiah 25:18, does put Jerusalem first on the list, but it also mentions: 
> "Jerusalem and the towns of Judah, its kings and officials, to make them a 
> ruin and an object of horror and scorn and cursing, **as they are today**;" 
> - so something had already started in Jerusalem too.
>
>
>
HH: Keil took "as this day" to mean that the prophecy was about to
happen: "starting from this day." But I think it may be better to assume
that Jeremiah wrote the history of all this later, once the events had
happened. So by the time he wrote it down, the realities showed that the
prophecy had been fulfilled to some extent, as one could see.

HH: It does not seem to make as much to me sense for Jeremiah to
prophesy something that has already happened. If it has happened, why
speak about it as something the Lord will do:

Jer. 25:9 I am going to send for all the tribes of the north, says the
LORD, even for King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon, my servant, and I will
bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these
nations around; I will utterly destroy them, and make them an object of
horror and of hissing, and an everlasting disgrace.

Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown write:

as it is this day--The accomplishment of the curse had already begun
under Jehoiakim. This clause, however, may have been inserted by
Jeremiah at his final revision of his prophecies in Egypt.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard