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  • From: <pporta AT oham.net>
  • To: "Isaac Fried" <if AT math.bu.edu>
  • Cc: b-hebrew Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Replaying
  • Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 07:25:27 +0100

[IF]
You bring the examples of the acts DIBAR-TI, DIBER [any person markers in
DIBER?] and DIBR-U, but let's look at DIBR-AH. Here -HA is as you say a
person marker. But it is also a gender maker since it reveals to us the
gender of the speaker. Any question about the KOHEN family answered by HI)
identifies MARAT KOHEN. It is also a tense marker since it informs us of the
relative time frame of the act. So, -AH is here a three-in-one maker. On the
other hand in the noun DIBR-AH, 'saying', [as in (ASERET HA-DIBROT] the same
-AH is used to inform us something utterly irrelevant, namely the "gender" of
'saying'.

[PP]

Isaac,
I think we agree. Indeed Hebrew language things are complex and by no means
simple...
You ask: Any person marker in DIBER? And one could answer: No person marker
here so that we could say that when there is no person marker... then the
IMPLIED person marker is that of third person singular masculine.
But... then... what about, say, these Imperative forms with no explicit
person marker such as $:LAX!, send! (1Sa 20:31) or $:)AL!, ask! (1Ki 3:5)
that refer to second -and no more to third- person singular masculine?
Maybe could we say here that the sheva after the first root consonant is the
person marker? Look at www.oham.net/out/N-t/N-t017.F.2.html


So the above assertion -no person marker = third person singular masculine-
would be true only for the Past or Perfect...



[IF]
Indeed, it is inconceivable that the ancient Hebrews would have encumbered,
say, ')ADAM-AH, 'earth' with the "suffix" -AH just to inform us about
something that is utterly irrelevant, and that springs into existence post
factum only by dint of the -AH affixation, namely the "gender" of 'earth'. To
the contrary, after -AH is added, for whatever reason, the noun becomes
classified as "feminine" in the sense of requiring a matching coupler ending
for a qualifier as in )ADAM-AH TOB-AH, or as in D)AGAH (AMUQ-AH, 'deep
worry', and so on.

[PP]

Yes, I think you are right.

[IF]

Local conclusion: -AH, -AT, -ET, -IT are not gender markers.

[PP]

You --we--- should better say that -AH, -AT, -ET, -IT are this and this and
this... and ALSO gender markers.

The -AH in the noun "DIBRAH" you mentionned is a good example of gender
marker. We find other samples in Ne 8:12; 13:5 or in Is 1:21.
But... even here we must be careful: in numbers... final -AH means masculine
(look at Lv 27:6, five shekels)

[IF]
Global conclusion: Hebrew does not have a marker specific for gender.


[PP]

True. But even if it has no specific marker for gender... it has some gender
markers such as

1. -AT --------- PIQAXAT, (female) seer (not in the Bible) <> PIQ"AX, (male)
seer or seeing (Ex 4:11) or YODA(AT, (female) who knows (Nm 31:17) <> YOD"(A,
(male) who knows (Js 22:22)

2. -ET ---------- )AXERET, other (female) (last word in Gn 17:21) as compared
to )AX"R, other (male) (last word in Rt 2:22) or GAXELET, hot coal(s) (Is
47:14) (root: gxl, kindle, burn)

3. -IYT --------- $"NIYT, second (female) (last word in Lv 13:5) as compared
with $"NIY, second (male) (last word in Gn 1:8)

and as it will be clear from the explanation pages I'm being making ready
(for the pattern type look for instance at www.oham.net/out/S-t/S-t1904.html

none of these -AT, -ET or -IYT refer to a male (1).

(1) There is perhaps the exception of Qal Imperative, second person masculine
singular, of some verbs: GA(AT, touch! (you, male) and the -AT or -ET marking
the construct state in some cases as that we find in Js 1:11: $:lo$et yamym,
three days.


Pere Porta
Barcelona (Spain)


Isaac Fried, Boston University

----- Original Message -----
From: pporta AT oham.net
To: Isaac Fried
Cc: b-hebrew Hebrew
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Replaying



It has been my experience of many years that planting a new idea is easy
but supplanting an existing idea is nigh impossible. Planted ideas are the
MASMROT NTU(IM of Ecclesiastes 12:11. Explaining is also best done
interactively.

Yes.

You appear to agree with David that "gender-marking is not
person-marking!", so pray, explain to me first what is in your opinion a
Hebrew "gender-marking",

"Gender-marker" is every "device" that tells to the reader or the
listener which is the gender of the being/thing (person, object, animal, mind
being...) dealt with.

And so,

1. A final -AH is a "gender-marker" in "na(arAH", girl (Rt 2:6), compared
with "na(ar", boy (Gen 37:2)
2. A final -T is a "gender-marker" in "(omedeT" (Hag 2:5) compared with
"(omed" (Gen 18:8)


what is a Hebrew "person-marking", and why "gender-marking IS NOT [or can
not be] person-marking".

"Person-marker" is every "device" that tells to the reader or the
listener which is the person (I, you, he, we...) who/which speaks, acts...
and so on...

Thus,

1. A final -TY is a "person-marker" in "dibarTY", I spoke (Js 1:3)
compared with "diber", he spoke (Gen 18:8)
2. An initial "Yi" is a "person-marker" AND at a time a "tense-marker" in
"yishlax", he will send (Gn 3:22) compared with 'shalax", he sent.
2. A final -U is a "person-marker" in "dibrU", they spoke (Gn 45:15),
compared with "diber", he spoke (Gen

Person-markers apply to verbs (or verb forms) and personal pronouns.

and why "gender-marking IS NOT [or can not be] person-marking".

These are two quite different concepts. The same as this: color and
thickness are differents things or concepts... and they can be found
coexisting together in a given object, let us say in a piece of chalk (a blue
thick piece of chalk or a thick blue piece of chalk) or not...
Now, can a color be or become thickness? Surely no!
Can thickness be or become a color? Surely no!

What can you argue against this?

Pere Porta
Barcelona (Spain)











Isaac Fried, Boston University


On Dec 13, 2007, at 6:54 AM, <pporta AT oham.net> wrote:


person-marking. I repeat: gender-marking is not person-marking!


David,


As regards noun-adjective, yes, I agree.


By the way, I think the problem with Isaac Fried is this: either he
does not
want to strive to explain things in such a manner that most of us can
understand what he says.... or really his theories, statements,
assertions
and so on are without any solid base.


If it is the first thing .... there is no point in keeping discussing
with
him. And if it is the second thing... ... the same!


If he sincerely thinks he is right, he should do every effort to
explain his
ideas... specially when some of listers have read his writing/s
--whose URL
Isaac himself gave us here some days ago-- and his ideas or message
did not
become clearer to readers after reading it/them.


This is, imho, the central issue, the core thing with him.


Pere Porta
Barcelona


[cut]


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