Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Dave Washburn" <dwashbur AT nyx.net>]

No problem; I just wasn't sure George would want credit for that
particular post!  In any case, spiral or not, the book certainly
chronicles the failure of the system and the need for something else.

On Tue, August 14, 2007 10:15 am, Jerry Shepherd wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> Sorry, my apologies for getting yours and George's posts mixed up.  Any
> you are certainly right about the chronology -- but I still see a basic
> narratival "downward spiral," in that a spiral can have its up points as
> well, or bring in another metaphor, one step up, two steps down, etc.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Jerry
>
> Dr. Jerry E. Shepherd
> Associate Professor of Old Testament
> Taylor Seminary
> 11525 - 23 Avenue
> Edmonton, AB T6J 4T3
> CANADA
> Office: (780)431-5250
> Home: (780)434-1164
> Fax: (780)436-9416
> Email: jerry.shepherd AT taylor-edu.ca
> Internet: http://www.taylor-edu.ca
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Dave Washburn
> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:12 AM
> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Samson at Gaza - Judges 16:1
>
> That was me, actually, who mentioned the commentary, and I hope I made
> it
> clear that I don't agree with that assessment.  One thing that I think
> gives the HB narratives a ring of truth is the fact that the characters
> are real people: flawed, fumbling, making mistakes, disobeying, being
> dunderheads at times.  I have already given my view, that the work of
> Samson against the Philistines sets up the narrative, heading toward the
> books of Samuel, for the rise of the Davidic kingdom.  I don't really
> see
> a "downward spiral" in leadership, especially considering that there was
> probably some overlap in the terms of the various judges (see my paper
> "The Chronology of Judges: Another Look", Bibliotheca Sacra, Oct. 1990).
>
> On Tue, August 14, 2007 8:12 am, Jerry Shepherd wrote:
>> Hi George
>>
>> I appreciate this slight corrective to your earlier post.  Perhaps
>> "profligate" was too harsh a word to use in the commentary you
> referred
>> to.  But, of course, he was no paragon of virtue either.  And I still
>> think he is part of the picture that the author of Judges paints of
>> deteriorating leadership, the "downward spiral."
>>
>> Blessings,
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>> Dr. Jerry E. Shepherd
>> Associate Professor of Old Testament
>> Taylor Seminary
>> 11525 - 23 Avenue
>> Edmonton, AB T6J 4T3
>> CANADA
>> Office: (780)431-5250
>> Home: (780)434-1164
>> Fax: (780)436-9416
>> Email: jerry.shepherd AT taylor-edu.ca
>> Internet: http://www.taylor-edu.ca
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of George Athas
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 12:41 AM
>> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Samson at Gaza - Judges 16:1
>>
>> The NT sees Samson as a 'hero of faith'. See Hebrews 11.32.
>>
>> My impression is that the Judges narrative paints Samson as a flawed
>> character, but it does the same for others like Jephthah and Gideon.
> In
>> that
>> regard, these three judges, for whom we have extended narratives, are
>> all in
>> the same basket. I note that Hebrews 11.32 also mentions Gideon and
>> Jephthah
>> (and also Barak).
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> GEORGE ATHAS
>> Moore Theological College (Sydney)
>> 1 King St, Newtown, NSW 2042, Australia
>> Ph: (+61 2) 9577 9774
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Calvin
>> Lindstrom
>> Sent: Tuesday, 14 August 2007 6:52 AM
>> To: B Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Samson at Gaza - Judges 16:1
>> Importance: Low
>>
>>
>> James Jordan has a very interesting commentary on Judges that goes
>> against the typical Protestant and pietistic view.
>>
>> It is available at:
>>
>> http://www.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/21ee_47e.htm
>>
>> Calvin Lindstrom
>> Church of Christian Liberty
>> Arlington Heights, IL
>> www.christianliberty.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 13, 2007, at 3:21 PM, Dave Washburn wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, August 13, 2007 12:47 pm, Yigal Levin wrote:
>>>> Dear Bruce,
>>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>> Your comment about "Christendom paints Samson as a bad man" is
>>>> interesting.
>>>> How representative is that statement of different Christian
>>>> denominations.
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> It's pretty thoroughly representative from what I've seen.  Most
>>> Christian-based commentaries paint him as a failure in his mission,
>>> and
>>> see women as the cause of his downfall.  I disagree wholeheartedly,
>>> and in
>>> 1992 I presented a paper to the ETS annual meeting arguing that
>>> Samson's
>>> problem wasn't lust, but loneliness.  As for his mission, the
>>> oracle his
>>> father is said to have received said he would "begin to" deliver
>>> Israel
>>> from the Philistine oppression; I see this as setting things up for
>>> the
>>> rise of the davidic dynasty which ultimately (according to the
>>> text) threw
>>> off the Philistine yoke and established an independent kingdom.
>>> Viewed in
>>> this wider context, his mission wasn't a failure at all.
>>>
>>> However, I'm far from representative of the average Christian
>>> commentator.
>>>  It's much more common to see him described in terms such as "the
>>> profligate judge" as one commentary put it.
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Bruce Prince" <bruceprince AT bigpond.com>
>>>> To: "b-Hebrew List" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 10:18 PM
>>>> Subject: [b-hebrew] Samson at Gaza - Judges 16:1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Folks
>>>>>
>>>>> Not being very good at understanding the intricate details of
>>>>> Biblical
>>>>> Hebrew, I'm wondering if you can help me understand what is going
>>>>> on in
>>>>> this
>>>>> verse?
>>>>>
>>>>> Generally, Christendom paints Samson as a bad man, but I'm not
>>>>> convinced.
>>>>> Even whilst staying in Gaza, the power of the Lord was upon him
>>>>> as he
>>>>> heaved
>>>>> those massive gates out of their foundation and up the hill. God's
>>>>> purpose
>>>>> for Samson was to rile the Philistines - a task he seemed
>>>>> particularly
>>>>> adapted to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Samson's reputation had gone before him to this city, and I'm
>>>>> wondering
>>>>> if
>>>>> he was simply using the home of the harlot as a place of abode in
>>>>> much
>>>>> the
>>>>> same way that the spies used Rahab's home in Jericho.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does the Hebrew of this verse undeniably state that Samson had
>>>>> intercourse
>>>>> with the harlot? Verse 3 states that he lay until midnight; it
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> say
>>>>> that he lay with her.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd appreciate any views.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce Prince
>>>>> Australia
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> b-hebrew mailing list
>>>>> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
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>>>>> 12/08/2007 11:03
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dave Washburn
>>> Why do it right when you can do it again?
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>>
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>
>
> --
> Dave Washburn
> Why do it right when you can do it again?
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-- 
Dave Washburn
Why do it right when you can do it again?