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b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] Definite Article 7:14 - HNH

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  • From: JoeWallack AT aol.com
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Definite Article 7:14 - HNH
  • Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 11:06:31 EDT



In a message dated 7/17/2007 12:27:39 PM Central Daylight Time,
hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net writes:

HH: HNH does not require physical presence or even necessarily imply it.
It can have a deictic force, but the context needs to clarify it. The
context in Isa 7:14 could have done this by saying, 'Behold (HNH) the
virgin standing by the king. She will conceive . . . ." Or it could have
done something similar. But as the verse stands, HNH does not have to
imply anything about physical presence. In the verse HNH is drawing
attention to what a/the virgin will do, not to the presence of the virgin.




JW:
Better. Have you noticed how you are usually on the Defensive here
Harold. "Does not necessarily", "it could". The points remain that H usually
indicates a known person and HNH has a most common translation of
"here is". No stronger indicator of physical presence is required as the most
common meanings already imply it. Your minority position is the one that
requires Textual Markers changing the Context from what H and HNH likely
indicate.

As we move forward through the context we again see a Textual Marker
for specific identification/physical presence:

(http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1007.htm)

"
יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה
הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ,
עִמָּנוּ
אֵל. 14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the
young
woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
"

HNH MTV Translation:

_http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15938&showrashi=true_
(http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15938&showrashi=true)


"14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the
young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his
name
Immanuel."

" הָרָה " = "is pregnant"

This is the perfect tense. You can once again do "Does not necessarily", "it
could" as even The Rashi
takes it here as imperfect (I think because of the prophecy connection) but
for your benefit and Karl's
if we go by examples in the Hebrew Bible, this construction is usually the
perfect.

So now, regarding the offending word in 7:14, we have the nearby Textual
Markers of:

HNH = Here is

HRH = Is pregnant

All completely consistent with a young woman who is not only known to Isaiah
and Ahaz but physically present. The HRH could even be physically noticeable
(this would fit the larger context of a "forced" prophecy. You would agree
that it's forced on Ahaz. That may not be the limit of it's forcefulness).

Consider that the two nearest Textual Markers support a physical presence
Harold, your indefinite translation is looking merely like a possible one at
this point. One that could not possibly be likely, even in your opinion, as
to
this point you always have to use minority meanings. You need a miracle in
the larger context to Save your meaning.

"HNH does not have to
imply anything about physical presence. In the verse HNH is drawing
attention to what a/the virgin will do, not to the presence of the virgin."

HRH is a very physical sign and a very common one in the Hebrew Bible as
evidence of
God's mysterious power and presence in human affairs (so to speak).



Joseph Wallack







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