Biblical Hebrew Forum

[JoeWallack AT aol.com]

In a message dated 7/17/2007 12:27:39 PM Central Daylight Time,  
hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net writes:

HH: HNH  does not require physical presence or even necessarily imply it. 
It can  have a deictic force, but the context needs to clarify it. The 
context in  Isa 7:14 could have done this by saying, 'Behold (HNH) the 
virgin standing  by the king. She will conceive . . . ." Or it could have 
done something  similar. But as the verse stands, HNH does not have to 
imply anything  about physical presence. In the verse HNH is drawing 
attention to what  a/the virgin will do, not to the presence of the  virgin.




JW:
Better. Have you noticed how you are usually on the Defensive here
Harold. "Does not necessarily", "it could". The points remain that H  usually
indicates a known person and HNH has a most common translation of
"here is". No stronger indicator of physical presence is required as the  most
common meanings already imply it. Your minority position is the one  that
requires Textual Markers changing the Context from what H and HNH  likely
indicate. 
 
As we move forward through the context we again see a Textual  Marker
for specific identification/physical presence:
 
(http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1007.htm) 

"
יד  לָכֵן  יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא,  לָכֶם--אוֹת:  הִנֵּה 
הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה   וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, 
עִמָּנוּ 
אֵל. 14 Therefore the  Lord  Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the 
young 
woman shall conceive,  and  bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
"

HNH MTV Translation:
 
_http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15938&showrashi=true_ 
(http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=15938&showrashi=true)  
 
 
"14. Therefore, the  Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the 
young woman is with child,  and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his 
name 
Immanuel."
 
" הָרָה " = "is pregnant" 
 
This is the perfect tense. You can once again do "Does not  necessarily", "it 
could" as even The Rashi
takes it here as imperfect (I think because of the  prophecy connection) but 
for your benefit and Karl's
if we go by examples in the Hebrew Bible, this  construction is usually the 
perfect. 
 
So now, regarding the offending word in 7:14, we have the  nearby Textual 
Markers of:
 
HNH = Here is
 
HRH = Is pregnant
 
All completely consistent with a young woman who is not  only known to Isaiah 
and Ahaz but physically present. The HRH could even be  physically noticeable 
(this would fit the larger context of a "forced" prophecy.  You would agree 
that it's forced on Ahaz. That may not be the limit of it's  forcefulness). 
 
Consider that the two nearest Textual Markers support a  physical presence 
Harold, your indefinite translation is looking merely like a  possible one at 
this point. One that could not possibly be likely, even in your  opinion, as 
to 
this point you always have to use minority meanings. You need a  miracle in 
the larger context to Save your meaning. 
 
"HNH does not have to 
imply anything about physical  presence. In the verse HNH is drawing 
attention to what a/the virgin will  do, not to the presence of the virgin."
 
HRH is a very physical sign and a very common one in the  Hebrew Bible as 
evidence of
God's mysterious power and presence in human affairs (so  to speak).
 
 
 
Joseph Wallack
 
 





************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour