Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Vadim Cherny" <VadimCherny AT mail.ru>]

Thank you, Rolf. Deictic center shift, as I mean it, describes relative
tense. That is, I agree, an aspectual property.

In other words:

yiqtol is plain future tense, always, with no exceptions.
qatal is plain past tense - again, no exceptions.

wayiqtol means "and + yiqtol". For example, wayyomer is "and he would say."
Similarly, weqatal means "and + qatal".

All verb forms could be employed with non-standard time reference - indeed,
an aspectual usage. But even in non-standard time reference, the verbs still
retain the correct tenses.

Returning to the example of wayyomer, "and he would say" construct refers to
the past events. Superficially, that makes wayyiqtol an aspect. But look
closer. The narrator actually employs wayyomer as future tense - but from
the shifted deicted center. The narrator is immersed into the recited
events. He moves with the timeline of his recital. For the narrator, the
words after wayyomer are not yet pronounced, but remain in future. He indeed
means, "and he would say." The narrator uses wayyomer as future tense.
Note that yiqtols are rarely used for past reference, but mostly wayiqtols.
That's extremely characteristic of recital. "And" is commonly inserted
specifically in recitals. Recall how often, for example, "and + verb" is
used in the Gospel of Mark.
I realize that such deictic center shifts are uncommon in English, and
that's why perhaps it's hard for English-speaking scholars to accept my
hypothesis. That shift, however, is extremely common in old Russian which is
why I always found it completely natural to read Hebrew precisely, "and he
would say."

Similarly, weqatal is often employed superficially as future reference. But
that occurs predominantly in prophetic visions. Prophets relate the visions
which had already occurred to them, which they had fully seen. The action
is, indeed, past to them - and they employ the past tense, wecatav means
"and he wrote." The event is still in the future for listeners, but past,
occurred for the prophet.

I would appreciate your comments.

Best,
Vadim Cherny

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rolf Furuli" <furuli AT online.no>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Verbal Aspect


> Dear Vadim,
>
> Honestly speaking, Vadim, I have no idea of what you mean. In order to be
> understood you have to define all the concepts you use carefully, and in a
> detailed way show how these concepts relates to each of the Hebrew
> conjugations, be they two or four. For example, my first impression of
your
> words "deictic center shift" is that this means "relative tense" (as
defined
> by Comrie this meansadeictic center different from speech time). However,
M.
> Broman Olsen has argued that in the English
> language, this "deictic shift" or "relative tense" should be interpreted
as
> an aspectual property. Therefore, detailed definitions are mandatory.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rolf Furuli
> University of Oslo
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Vadim Cherny" <VadimCherny AT mail.ru>
> To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Verbal Aspect
>
>
> >I wonder, could anyone voice any argument against my simple hypothesis of
> > Hebrew tenses:
> >
> > Deictic center shift was the original meaning of prefix waw, and tense
> > reversal is derivative sense. "And he would say" (wayiqtol) about past
> > events and "and he said" (weqatal) by a prophet who relates his vision -
> > evolved into "he said" and "he will say," respectively.
> >
> > Some wayiqtols relate future events, "and + future tense verb" without
> > deictic center shift.
> >
> >
> >
> > In other words, wayiqtol is "and yiqtol." Narrator is immersed into the
> > past
> > events, his deictic center shifts, and he employs future tense about the
> > events, long past for his readers but still in the future from his
deictic
> > point.
> >
> > English is not very flexible about deicti center shifts, but, for
example,
> > Russian employs deictic shifts a lot in recitals.
> >
> >
> >
> > My explanation is the simplest, logical, and fully consistent with
> > observed
> > facts.
> >
> >
> >
> > Vadim Cherny
> >
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> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>