Biblical Hebrew Forum

[kgraham0938 AT comcast.net]

@Yitzhak Sapir
You wrote:
> 
YS:> No. First, notice that there are several definitions )ayil, so it 
> would be wise to  point out to which you refer. You refer to the first one, 
> but there are three in all. 
Response: You're correct I only listed one, and the only reason I did that 
was because that is the one that actually list Ezk 32:21.  I could not find 
that verse listed amonst all the others so I did not bother.
--------------------------------------------------------------
You go on to say:
YS:Next, notice that there is )ayyal on the next column. This has all the 
> cognates that Fox lists for PS *)ayyal. Now, next to both, along with 
> )eyal, 
> and )ayil (2), there is: ")WL (2)", meaning that HALOT views these words, 
> all these words as deriving from the second root )WL. If you look up this 
> second root )WL, you will see it is defined "to be in front, to be strong", 
> and 
> that there is an Arabic and perhaps other uses of this verb. This root is 
> reconstructed in Hebrew, so evidently there aren't verbal uses of this root 
>  in the Bible. However, it is viewed by HALOT as the root for both the > 
> first and second )ayil definitions, )ayyal, )el, )ellah, )elon, 
> )allon, and perhaps 
> muwl. 
Response: Ok I follow you thus far.  BDB has pretty much the same thing as 
HALOT.  It reads 
be in front of, precede, lead; 
YS:Note that )ayyal has a dagesh inside the yod meaning that letter is 
> doubled. Fox evidently disagrees with reconstructing these words from a  
> verbal root since the study mentioned of Fox aims to reconstruct isolated  
> nouns -- those nouns that are not related to verbs and hence their  
> development can be traced. Nouns that are related to verbs are very hard 
> to trace in Semitic languages because their noun forms change along with 
> usage of the verb. Fox recognizes that sometimes verbs can occur relating 
> to isolated nouns in some languages but these are specific occurences that 
> are not widespread across all Semitic languages, and furthermore, it is 
> clear that the verb is a secondary formation from the noun. When the verb 
> is widespread or the verb does not appear to be secondary development 
> from the noun, Fox does not identify the word as an isolated noun. Finally, 
> note that even HALOT notes that some of its claims of )ayil (1) words are 
> alternatively explained as deriving from )el. In fact, the examples they 
> give 
> are probably better explained as deriving from )el. I think that since 
> )ayyal 
> and )ayil are so similar in consonants and semantics, it appears clear that 
> they are etymologically related, and deriving )ayil from )ayyal seems the 
> most reasonable way to do so. The derivation I gave for )ayil -- )ayyal -> 
> )ay.yl -> )ayil -- is not Fox's but I assume something like that is what he 
> intends since he places both as Hebrew cognates of PS *)ayyal. 

Response: Well thank you for a most enlightening discussion, I learned alot 
and you even help me read HALOT better.  I appreaciate it.
>From yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com  Fri Sep 29 02:15:02 2006
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Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:15:01 +0000
From: "Yitzhak Sapir" <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Psalm 22:16 - daqar as pierced ?
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On 9/28/06, Vadim Cherny wrote:

> I'm less familiar with the Christian issues, but I frankly don't see how you
> could read ca-ari in Ps22:17 as "pierced."
> As a lion [they have encompassed (transposition from the earlier phrase)] my
> hands and feet.
>
> Vadim Cherny

The prefix ka- in this verse takes a qamats, suggesting it can't be
read as "As a
lion".  There are variants with a patach, but as it stands the standard 
reading
also has its problems (though probably less than the reading k)r = dig, which
ignore just the vowels, but also the aleph).

Yitzhak Sapir