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  • From: kgraham0938 AT comcast.net
  • To: "Yitzhak Sapir" <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>, b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] help with Ezekiel 32:21
  • Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 02:42:05 +0000



@Yitzhak Sapir
You wrote:
>
YS:> No. First, notice that there are several definitions )ayil, so it
> would be wise to point out to which you refer. You refer to the first one,
> but there are three in all.
Response: You're correct I only listed one, and the only reason I did that
was because that is the one that actually list Ezk 32:21. I could not find
that verse listed amonst all the others so I did not bother.
--------------------------------------------------------------
You go on to say:
YS:Next, notice that there is )ayyal on the next column. This has all the
> cognates that Fox lists for PS *)ayyal. Now, next to both, along with
> )eyal,
> and )ayil (2), there is: ")WL (2)", meaning that HALOT views these words,
> all these words as deriving from the second root )WL. If you look up this
> second root )WL, you will see it is defined "to be in front, to be strong",
> and
> that there is an Arabic and perhaps other uses of this verb. This root is
> reconstructed in Hebrew, so evidently there aren't verbal uses of this root
> in the Bible. However, it is viewed by HALOT as the root for both the >
> first and second )ayil definitions, )ayyal, )el, )ellah, )elon,
> )allon, and perhaps
> muwl.
Response: Ok I follow you thus far. BDB has pretty much the same thing as
HALOT. It reads
be in front of, precede, lead;
YS:Note that )ayyal has a dagesh inside the yod meaning that letter is
> doubled. Fox evidently disagrees with reconstructing these words from a
> verbal root since the study mentioned of Fox aims to reconstruct isolated
> nouns -- those nouns that are not related to verbs and hence their
> development can be traced. Nouns that are related to verbs are very hard
> to trace in Semitic languages because their noun forms change along with
> usage of the verb. Fox recognizes that sometimes verbs can occur relating
> to isolated nouns in some languages but these are specific occurences that
> are not widespread across all Semitic languages, and furthermore, it is
> clear that the verb is a secondary formation from the noun. When the verb
> is widespread or the verb does not appear to be secondary development
> from the noun, Fox does not identify the word as an isolated noun. Finally,
> note that even HALOT notes that some of its claims of )ayil (1) words are
> alternatively explained as deriving from )el. In fact, the examples they
> give
> are probably better explained as deriving from )el. I think that since
> )ayyal
> and )ayil are so similar in consonants and semantics, it appears clear that
> they are etymologically related, and deriving )ayil from )ayyal seems the
> most reasonable way to do so. The derivation I gave for )ayil -- )ayyal ->
> )ay.yl -> )ayil -- is not Fox's but I assume something like that is what he
> intends since he places both as Hebrew cognates of PS *)ayyal.

Response: Well thank you for a most enlightening discussion, I learned alot
and you even help me read HALOT better. I appreaciate it.
>From yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com Fri Sep 29 02:15:02 2006
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Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:15:01 +0000
From: "Yitzhak Sapir" <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Psalm 22:16 - daqar as pierced ?
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On 9/28/06, Vadim Cherny wrote:

> I'm less familiar with the Christian issues, but I frankly don't see how you
> could read ca-ari in Ps22:17 as "pierced."
> As a lion [they have encompassed (transposition from the earlier phrase)] my
> hands and feet.
>
> Vadim Cherny

The prefix ka- in this verse takes a qamats, suggesting it can't be
read as "As a
lion". There are variants with a patach, but as it stands the standard
reading
also has its problems (though probably less than the reading k)r = dig, which
ignore just the vowels, but also the aleph).

Yitzhak Sapir




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