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  • From: Shoshanna Walker <rosewalk AT concentric.net>
  • To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The Pesach prohibition - baked, not leavened bread
  • Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 20:41:43 -0500

I did say. It's fermentation. Chometz referring to wine refers to grapes that have fermented, vs. grape juice, which is also called yayin.

This is the old language, and it's older in the Chumash than in Hosea. Chazal certainly knew what the Pesach prohibition is, better than you.

When you quote verses out of context you don't get the true meaning. And they aren't all supposed to be taken literally. A lot of what the Prophets say is allegory. "The inciter - the evil inclination - devises its plan and rests until the time is ripe to bring it to fruition.

Rashi: from the kneading the dough until it leavens From the time he thinks of the evil in his heart, how he will do it, he rests and sleeps until morning, when he can do it, just as the baker rests from the kneading of the dough until it leavens, when he can bake it. And so it is stated in Micah (2: 1): "Woe is to those who plan iniquity and work evil on their beds; when the morning lights up, they do it."

Re dough - it takes 18 minutes for flour to start to ferment from the moment it is mixed with water. Mix it with water, then knead it - and you have a certain amount of time before the fermentation process begins. Unless you put it in a hot oven and begin to bake it before that process begins. It's really very simple, unless you start to make new things up and then try to reconcile your imagination with reality.

Shoshanna



Shoshanna, you're talking of new words. Stick to the old language.
If hometz meant vinegar in the time the Numbers was written, then how could
the phrase "hometz wine" appear? You don't say, "vinegar wine." It is
"heating wine" (strong drink). Vinegar is a derivative meaning.
Any wine appears in fermentation. Is there any language which has a turn
"fermented wine"?
I suppose, as a woman, you bake once in a while. How about Hos7:4? Does a
dough leaven in hot oven, or is it rather baked?

Vadim Cherny

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shoshanna Walker" <rosewalk AT concentric.net>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 7:02 AM
Subject: [b-hebrew] The Pesach prohibition - baked, not leavened bread


The word chametz refers to fermentation, not hot and pressed.

Chometz is vinegar

Chamutzim are pickles

Chamutz is sour

Etc.

"hometz" wine - is just simply grapes that have fermented, ie; wine,
vs. grape juice.

Why do so many people think that they need to "improve" on, or change
the real meanings of the Torah???

Do you think it makes you smart to make new things up?

Shoshanna



The hametz prohibited on Pesach seems to mean baked bread. The idea
of leavening is derivative because leaven was often added before
baking.

The word hametz consists of root cells hm and mtz, hot and pressed.
Confirms Hos7:4: bad baker doesn't watch the dough from kneading
until it becomes hmtz in the hot oven. Dough is baked in the oven,
not leavened.

Nazirite should abstain from hometz wine. Hometz, presumably, is
something that makes something else hametz. Wine - unlike beer - was
not used for leavening the bread. Like another word for wine, hmr
(hm-mr, hot and rising), hmtz here means "hot and pressing", and
refers to agitating effect of wine. That makes sense of the
prohibition.
Hometz similarly means "violent" in Ps71:4, certainly not "leavened."
The difference between Lev7:12 and 7:13 is now clear: halot matzot
(pressed cakes) could be oiled, but halot lehem hametz (baked bread)
are soft and break when oiled.

Reading hametz as "baked" correlates with the tradition. Hebrews in
Egypt prepared the last bread at least as usual, more probably - as
festive bread to accompany the meat sacrifice. They had no reason to
prepare the dough without leaven. They left in haste, and didn't have
time to bake the bread. They ate the pressed sun-dried cakes, a
normal food even now in traditional Egyptian villages.

Please share your opinions about that suggestion. You can read it in
more details at http://vadimcherny.org/judaism/custom_pesach.htm

Vadim Cherny
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