Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Kevin Graham" <kevlds AT hotmail.com>]

== I think the meaning of "if ... and" in Hebrew is most literally 
translated
as "if <you do xxxx> *also* <we will do yyy>". It is tit-for-tat, not as
strong a cause-effect relationship as if-then.

Now that IS interesting. Can anyone else corroborate this hypothesis? Royal 
Skousen has been arguing that in Hebrew the same exists in a cause-effect 
relationship. It would prove detrimental to his argument if this is not the 
case, and the if-and phenomena were all "tit for tats" as Steve suggests it 
might be.




> From: "Steve Miller" <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'Kevin Graham'" <kevlds AT hotmail.com>,<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Hebrew "If-and" construction and the Book of Mormon
> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:09:23 -0400
>
>
> > == It might also be worth researching whether there were any highly
> > literal
> > translations of the Old Testament in circulation which used this
> > construction, which Joseph Smith might have known and copied.
> >
> > I had been thinking the same thing. I looked up several translations
> > available to Smith like Wycliffe, Geneva, et cetera, but so far no
> > examples
> > of the if-and clausal.
> >
> [Steve Miller]The LXX is the most literal translator of the vav as "and".
> In Gen 34:15-17, previously ref'd, LXX translates the vav at the beginning
> of v16 as "and", but as nothing in the middle of v17.
>
> Gen 31:15  Only on these terms will we conform to you, and dwell among you,
> if ye also will be as we are, in that every male of you be circumcised.
>
> 16  And we will give our daughters to you, and we will take of your
> daughters for wives to us, and we will dwell with you, and we will be as 
> one
> race.
>
> 17  But if ye will not hearken to us to be circumcised, we will take our
> daughter and depart.
>
> What other examples are there of "if ... and" in the Hebrew Bible?
>
> I think the meaning of "if ... and" in Hebrew is most literally translated
> as "if <you do xxxx> *also* <we will do yyy>". It is tit-for-tat, not as
> strong a cause-effect relationship as if-then.
> I would translate Gen 34:17 as:
> And if you will not hearken to us to be circumcised, also we will take our
> daughter and depart.
>
> English "and" simply won't work here in the middle of verse 17, because
> "and" would make the 2nd phrase, "we will take our daughter...", part of 
> the
> conditional, which is not the case with the Hebrew vav.
>
> -Steve Miller
> Detroit
> www.voiceinwilderness.info