Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

;-) lol

Very good Peter. He does have a point, though.

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Kirk [mailto:peter AT qaya.org]
Sent: Sat 11/19/2005 12:27 AM
To: Read, James C
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] NIV v' NWT translation policy
 
On 18/11/2005 23:33, Read, James C wrote:

> >I understand the method, which is legitimate for certain audiences. But,
> >I would consider a meaningless word or a transliteration more
> >appropriate than a word whose core meaning has components which are
> >quite inappropriate.
>
> I concur with the above.
>
For a translation taking this approach, see 
http://englishbibles.blogspot.com/2005/11/announcing-perfectly-accurate-bible.html.
 
I understand that the Hebrew Bible will also soon be available in this 
version. ;-)

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/


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>From kgraham0938 AT comcast.net  Sat Nov 19 08:01:16 2005
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] KY interrogative? was Deuteronomy 20:19 )DM
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@Karl:

> I thought mine is the best. ;-)
Response: LOL, that is cool.

Karl:> And when David finished to speak these words to Saul
> that Saul said, Is this your voice my son David? and Saul
> lifted his voice and wept. And he said unto David, You are
> more just than I, for you acted well towards me and I have
> acted badly towards you. And today you set before
> (reported) that good which you did with me, that which
> YHWH locked me up in your hands and you did not kill
> me. And when a man finds his enemy and sends him away
> on a good road that YHWH will make you full of goodness
> because of this day which you did to me.
>
> In verse 20, I read Saul as starting the sentence with a
> subordinate clause stating a principle, the reason that
> YHWH will bless David. As such this is not a question,
> at least not in Hebrew.
Response:  I see what you are saying, but if you take the KIY here as 
introducing a rhetorical question, it makes Saul's statements become sort of 
like "who does this type of thing?"  In other words when a man finds his 
adversary he normally kills him, but not David.  And so I think Saul is 
asking "who does this type of thing?"
"When a man finds his adversary, does he send him on the good road?" The 
obvious answer is no.  He tries to kill him.  Then I think you should take 
V:$ALLEM"KA as a jussive.  May the Lord "reward you" well....

------------------------------

Karl:> In light of the recent discussion of literal verses ideational
> translations, this passage would almost be unintelligible
> as a word for word translation. Even this quick translation
> could be greatly polished for smoother reading in English.

Response: Yes, I see what you are saying.  But I do personally think there is 
merit to what HALOT is saying.  Here is my rendering
And if a man a man finds his adversary, does he send him on a good road?  May 
the Lord reward you in return this day which you did to me.

--
Kelton Graham
 KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net
>From kgraham0938 AT comcast.net  Sat Nov 19 08:03:23 2005
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] KY interrogative? was Deuteronomy 20:19 )DM
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@ Dave:

My lexicon has BDAG on the side of it, it's the third edition.  I think the 
2nd edition is called BAGD and the third edition is called BDAG.

--
Kelton Graham
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net

-------------- Original message --------------

> It's actually usually abbreviated BAGD, for Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich-Danker.
> Bauer was the original compiler, Arndt and Gingrich did a major revision, 
> and
> Danker did another one. It's easier to type than the actual title.
>
> On Friday 18 November 2005 20:10, kgraham0938 AT comcast.net wrote:
> > @Karl:
> >
> >
> > What's a BDAG?
> >
> > Response: A Greek Lexicon of The New Testament and Other Christian
> > Literature.
> >
> > It is one of the best Greek lexicons out right now just as HALOT is
> > probably the best Hebrew lexicon out right now.
> >
> > > ----------------------------------
> >
> > Karl:I got the right verse, I also read to make sure the
> > contextual verses around it as well.
> >
> > I read the KY here as introducing a subordinate clause
> > that is a statement indicating why God will bless David.
> > Saul is stating a principle, hence his use of the third
> > person here, then returns to David in the second person.
> > If H.A.L.O.T. disagrees with me here, then I think that
> > H.A.L.O.T. is wrong.
> >
> > Response: Tell you what, translate the verse for me without making it a
> > rhetorical question and see if it makes sense. If you make it a rhetorical
> > question, then one must ask why did you make it a question, if not, then
> > I'd like to see you make sense out of it. But note the NIV and NASB, and
> > NET all have it as rhetorical question. And I did supply two sources both
> > of which are realible to explain where it came from, so I'd like to see
> > your thinking on this one.
> >
> > Karl:Thus I find the claim that KY can introduce an interrogative
> > without the presence of an interrogative prefixed H- has
> > no basis other than two disputed verses (that these are
> > in fact questions), therefore the whole concept itself is
> > questionable.
> >
> > Response: Well, I've tried to give you sources and verses to go along with
> > it, that is about the extent of my resources on this verse. So if you
> > don't think they are questions the only thing I would ask is for an
> > alternate translation then we can probably call it quits unless someone
> > else has any suggestions.
> >
> > > ---------------------------------------------
> >
> > --
> > Kelton Graham
> > KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net
> > _______________________________________________
> > b-hebrew mailing list
> > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
> --
> Dave Washburn
> http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
> "Maybe I'll trade it for a new hat."
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>From dwashbur AT nyx.net  Sat Nov 19 12:21:56 2005
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From: Dave Washburn <dwashbur AT nyx.net>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] KY interrogative? was Deuteronomy 20:19 )DM
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Interesting.  I've never seen it referred to with that sequence before.  The
second edition, which I still use, is actually BAG, because Danker didn't
come in until the third edition.  Oh well...

On Saturday 19 November 2005 06:03, kgraham0938 AT comcast.net wrote:
> @ Dave:
>
> My lexicon has BDAG on the side of it, it's the third edition.  I think the
> 2nd edition is called BAGD and the third edition is called BDAG.
>
> --
> Kelton Graham
> KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> > It's actually usually abbreviated BAGD, for Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich-Danker.
> > Bauer was the original compiler, Arndt and Gingrich did a major revision,
> > and Danker did another one. It's easier to type than the actual title.
> >
> > On Friday 18 November 2005 20:10, kgraham0938 AT comcast.net wrote:
> > > @Karl:
> > >
> > >
> > > What's a BDAG?
> > >
> > > Response: A Greek Lexicon of The New Testament and Other Christian
> > > Literature.
> > >
> > > It is one of the best Greek lexicons out right now just as HALOT is
> > > probably the best Hebrew lexicon out right now.
> > >
> > > > ----------------------------------
> > >
> > > Karl:I got the right verse, I also read to make sure the
> > > contextual verses around it as well.
> > >
> > > I read the KY here as introducing a subordinate clause
> > > that is a statement indicating why God will bless David.
> > > Saul is stating a principle, hence his use of the third
> > > person here, then returns to David in the second person.
> > > If H.A.L.O.T. disagrees with me here, then I think that
> > > H.A.L.O.T. is wrong.
> > >
> > > Response: Tell you what, translate the verse for me without making it a
> > > rhetorical question and see if it makes sense. If you make it a
> > > rhetorical question, then one must ask why did you make it a question,
> > > if not, then I'd like to see you make sense out of it. But note the NIV
> > > and NASB, and NET all have it as rhetorical question. And I did supply
> > > two sources both of which are realible to explain where it came from,
> > > so I'd like to see your thinking on this one.
> > >
> > > Karl:Thus I find the claim that KY can introduce an interrogative
> > > without the presence of an interrogative prefixed H- has
> > > no basis other than two disputed verses (that these are
> > > in fact questions), therefore the whole concept itself is
> > > questionable.
> > >
> > > Response: Well, I've tried to give you sources and verses to go along
> > > with it, that is about the extent of my resources on this verse. So if
> > > you don't think they are questions the only thing I would ask is for an
> > > alternate translation then we can probably call it quits unless someone
> > > else has any suggestions.
> > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > --
> > > Kelton Graham
> > > KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > b-hebrew mailing list
> > > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> >
> > --
> > Dave Washburn
> > http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
> > "Maybe I'll trade it for a new hat."
> > _______________________________________________
> > b-hebrew mailing list
> > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

--
Dave Washburn
http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
"Maybe I'll trade it for a new hat."