Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

All the same, it still gives ample reason to consider that this may well 
have been a case of 'black death' whether they realised who was carrying 
the pathogen or not.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Karl Randolph
Sent: Wed 10/5/2005 12:11 AM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Who is Ptgyh of Ekron Inscription again?
 
Peter:

What I've read on the plague is that many rats coming out 
and dying, followed almost at the same time that many 
people developed bubonic plague, has been noticed by 
even ancient peoples. But it was only with the discovery of 
the disease pathogen and the role that rat fleas play in the 
spread of the disease was it discovered that there was a 
connection, not just a coincidence.

I am not making any claim that the ancient Philistines saw 
it as anything other than a coincidence.

Karl W. Randolph.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Kirk" <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
To: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Who is Ptgyh of Ekron Inscription again?
Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 22:11:49 +0500

> 
> On 04/10/2005 00:36, Karl Randolph wrote:
> 
> > ... From this story, I get the picture that this was an outbreak 
> > of bubonic plague, typified by many rats coming out and dying, 
> > followed by the disease breaking out in people with swellings 
> > (buboes) and a high mortality rate 1 Samuel 5:12.
> >
> >
> 
> This is an interesting theory, but it raises the interesting suggestion
> that the ancient Philistine priests and diviners were aware of the
> connection between rats and bubonic plague, something which has been
> generally known only since the 19th century CE. Or else is suggests that
> some readers of English versions have understood "plague" as referring
> specifically to bubonic plague, rather than in its general sense of
> "serious epidemic", and have then used their creative imaginations
> concerning the model rats.
> 
> -- Peter Kirk
> peter AT qaya.org (personal)
> peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
> http://www.qaya.org/


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>From VadimCherny AT mail.ru  Wed Oct  5 03:20:40 2005
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] prepositions and grammar
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RE: [b-hebrew] prepositions and grammarThe sense of the sentence depends on 
the reading of prepositions, in the first place. Don't read prepositions, and 
you have a different sense.

In "the man became a living soul," the object is in oblative. There is no way 
that le can be used with oblative. No way.

And, by the way, your Spanish example is incorrect. Preposition a is used 
specifically for people, both as direct and indirect objects. As a rule, 
preposition is used only for indirect objects (I spoke to audience). This is 
incidentally consistent with Hebrew and English practice.

Vadim Cherny


  In Spanish the direct object always takes the preposition 'a'.

  e.g. Spanish literally reads 'I saw to Maria'

  What do you suggest Vadim? Should I translate the 'to' literally or
  rather just translate the sense of the sentence?

  So you suggest to ignore prepositions when convenient? Next, shall we ignore
  verbs?

  Vadim Cherny


  > >4) "became a living soul" ignores the preposition le, "became for a
  > >living soul."
  >
  > I'm joining this argument in the middle, but let me point out that the
  > preposition "L" here should not be translated "for."  Rather, the
  > preposition is a consequence of Hebrew grammar.  In a language such as
  > English, in which the grammar does not require a preposition, the word
  > is best left untranslated.
  >
  > It is a common mistake to translate grammatical elements into semantic
  > ones, or vice versa.
  >
  > With wishes for a healthy and happy 5766,
  >
  > -Joel Hoffman
  > http://www.exc.com/JoelHoffman
  >
  >

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