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Subject: Biblical Hebrew Forum
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- From: "John Gray" <jgray AT lfmp.com.au>
- To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] b-hebrew Digest, Vol 33, Issue 43
- Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:12:22 +1000
Dear Yigal - thank you for your helpfull comments re priesthood - John Gray
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Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 2:00 AM
Subject: b-hebrew Digest, Vol 33, Issue 43
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Today's Topics:
1. Hebrew qualifications for Priesthood (W Ellison)
2. Re: Hebrew qualifications for Priesthood (Yigal Levin)
3. Who is Ptgyh of Ekron? (David Eid)
4. Re: Broad heart (Karl Randolph)
5. Re: online targums (Ken Penner)
6. consonant vowel order of )EHYEH & YAHWEH (David P Donnelly)
7. Re: Broad heart (Reinier de Blois)
8. Re: Broad heart (Karl Randolph)
9. Gen 2:6 - Job 36:27 (Vadim Cherny)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: W Ellison <el_guero2000 AT yahoo.com>
Subject: [b-hebrew] Hebrew qualifications for Priesthood
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20050927170525.39200.qmail AT web31108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
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Hellow everyone!
I am new to B-Hebrew, and I know that I will learn more than I will contribute.
1. Are there passages that list the qualifications for Priesthood?
2. Should the OT Priesthood have an impact upon our modern view of Pastors?
---------------------------------
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:49:47 +0200
From: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Hebrew qualifications for Priesthood
To: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
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Dear W.,
First of all, please give us a name. It makes exchanges so much more
congenial.
According to the "Priestly" parts of the Pentateuch, Israelite priests must
be descended from Aaron, brother of Moses, through male lineage. The rest of
the tribe of Levi has a supporting role, serving in the sanctuary. Only men,
and only those who do not suffer physical defects, may serve. Many of the
prophetic writings, and certainly most of the later, post-exilic books,
assume that this was so. Many historians believe that there were several
groups or families of priests in early Israel, that were eventually combined
into the "Aaronide" and later "Zadokite" priesthood (Zadok was the high
priest under David, and many later priests traced their descent from him).
However there is very little resemblance between the role of the biblical
priest and that of the modern pastor, minister, vicar, or rabbi. The
priest's role was mostly ritual (although there were individuals, who were
priests, who also took on other leadership roles). The modern pastor's role
is more educational. I know that some Christian denominations like to
consider their priests as taking on the role of the biblical priesthood, but
they are just not the same.
Yigal
----- Original Message ----- From: "W Ellison" <el_guero2000 AT yahoo.com>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 7:05 PM
Subject: [b-hebrew] Hebrew qualifications for Priesthood
Hellow everyone!
I am new to B-Hebrew, and I know that I will learn more than I will
contribute.
1. Are there passages that list the qualifications for Priesthood?
2. Should the OT Priesthood have an impact upon our modern view of
Pastors?
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
_______________________________________________
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 22:01:00 +0200
From: David Eid <eid.david AT gmail.com>
Subject: [b-hebrew] Who is Ptgyh of Ekron?
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
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Dear All,
Ten years after the discovery of Ekron Inscription, may be it is the time to
ask this question: is Ptgyh of the inscription really a name of a deity?
Before we try to give an answer to this question we have to say that we did
not meet the term (Ptgyh) for the first time in Ekron inscription. It has
been mentioned centuries before in wen-em-diamun report and read by the
Egyptolists as Petigayah . According to this report Beder, the Philistine
captive, said to the Egyptian official:
(*At this, I became very distressed. 'Lady Petigayah despises criminals).*
Ptgyh is Petigayah itself. The deference is the nonsexist of the vowels in
Ekron inscription.
We are suggesting that this term is not a deity's name*. *It is, indeed, a
description of the deity which contains the name of the people who worshiped
it. It is not unusual in the ancient inscriptions to describe the deity
without mentioning her name. For example, we know that the Phoenicians used
to dedicate to their goddess by this formula: To the Sidonians Lady, or: *to
*the Lady of Byblus, where the name of the goddess is not mentioned. There
is no need to mention it, because it is well known to her people. If this is
right we suggest the term Petigayah is combined of two words:
1- Pe: which corresponds with the Arabic word Beh. Beh means nobility and
greatness.
2-Tigayah, which is the name of the people. The dedication phrase then must
be read as: to the noble one (lady) of the Tigayah people.
But who were this people?
Tagayah is the ancient Arabian people which was called: Tayayah, Tayaya,
Tayyaye. **
Tayayah is the plural of Taiy .Taiy is a proto-Arab people. It has Arabised
long before Islam and became an Arab tribe. Its ruminant is now, may be, the
largest tribe in the Arab world. Although it became an Arab it kept a
special dialect within Arabic until after Islam called Taiy Language. This
tribe is still living in Arabia, Iraq , Jordan, Palestine and every where in
the Arab world. Its main center is Najd Mountains in the heart of Arabia.
Because this tribe-people was the strongest between the Arabs of the
Peninsula before Islam its name has been applied to the Arabs and Bedouins
as a whole. They all have been called: *Tayayah, Tayyaye*. In the first A.D.
centuries the Arabs were still called Tayayah by the Syrians and by the
Talmud Hebrew. We know the formula from Syrian Christians: *Hirtha de
Tayyaye* (Hira of the Arabs). Indeed this name has been applied to the first
Muslims by the Christians historians like *Thomas the Presbyter*: Tayyaye*d-Mhmt
** or* Isho'yahb III of Adiabene:* **tayyaye mhaggre **.* For example,* *John
of Damascus also wrote *(Against the Tayyaye*) naming the Arab Moslems.
Now, as we can see that the only deference between *Tagayah* of Ekron
Inscription and *Tayayah* is the letter *g*:
But, we knew that it was wide spread between Arabian tribes to change the y
into g (better to say j). For example, Qudha'ah tribe used to change the
double y in every word into j. Taiy name in Arabic is with double y. Feqim
tribe used to change every kind of y into j. Arabian tribes in Kuwait do the
opposite until now; they change the j into y. The name must have pronounced
with some kind of *j*. There is a proof is that Taiy name was pronounced
with j some times in some languages. For example, the *Armenians and
Persians* used to call the Arabs as: Tadgik, Tachik or Tazi*, *from the word
Taiy to bring about the letter j. Robert G . Hoyland in *Arabia and the
Arabs from the Bronze Age to the Coming of Islam *(London: Routledge, 2001)
suggested that the name of the Tajik people in central Asia came from the
name of Taiy. So Tagayah is a variant pronunciation of Tayayah, Tayyaye.
But what is the connection between the name Tagayah and the name Philistine?
The Philistines did not call themselves Philistines. They called themselves
Tagayah. Philistine is a name applied to them by the others. It is a
combination of the name of the tribe in singular (Taiy) with the main male
deity of this tribe which is called: Feles. Feles was still alive until
Islam. Philistine is: Feles+Taiy =Felestaiy which means: the Feles of Taiy
or Taiy of the Feles.
The Philistine is not only a Semite people; they are from the heart of
Arabia. By reading Ptgyh as a deity's name we missed the chance to uncover
this fact.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:35:02 -0500
From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Broad heart
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20050927203502.87FCC164278 AT ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
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Dear Reinier:
You are the person to correct me if I am wrong, but
it is my impression that an over reliance on semantic
domains can lead to incorrect definitions. Is it not
possible for a lexeme to be used only six times in
Tanakh, each in a separate semantic domain, with
the result that it can given six unique definitions, one
for each semantic domain?
When I first learned a foreign language, I learned that
each lexeme has one basic meaning. Sometimes that
lexeme is used in ways that sound very strange in
English, in semantic domains where we use different
lexemes, but that did not negate the basic pattern
that each lexeme has one basic meaning. The
technique I developed for learning languages
involved learning the vocabulary, then as part of
learning it, learning in which semantic domains each
lexeme may be utilized.
Further, words can be used as euphemisms or
idiomatically to invoke a picture. With modern
languages, it is possible to ask native speakers to
explain such uses. In a previous message, I mentioned
the American English use of "strike out" used as an
idiom to mean to fail, not get anywhere, invoking a
picture from baseball where a player fails to get on
base, and unless he gets on base he cannot score.
Another example is ABD "to become lost" often used
as an euphemism for death and dying.
The word RXB is a good example. It's basic meaning is
to become spacious, both length and distance. It is
also used of making a mouth spacious (wide open)
and in an idiomatic manner making strong (used of a
nation that expands its borders, hence it is a powerful
nation).
The statement in 1 Kings 5:9 that a broad heart
indicates that there was a lot of room to fill with
wisdom sounds very English (as in language) leaving
me to wonder if it fits the Hebrew use at all. Seeing as it
is used in an idiom, shouldn't we look for idiomatic uses
to help understand the meaning?
For example, it used to be said that a coward "had a
yellow streak up his back". The more cowardly, the
broader the streak, so that a very cowardly person
had "a broad yellow streak..." Like the example above
with 1 Kings and Solomon, "broad" did not refer to
having more room to fill, rather the broader the
stronger the effect.
Now we come to "spacious of heart", an idiomatic
phrase. You are right that the heart was where people
considered to be the source of thinking. Therefore an
expansive heart is an overpowering intellect. This is not
the scintillating intellect of an Einstein or other brainy
savant, rather the mind that is firmly rooted in its own
verities such that it is not easily swayed by others,
instead sways others. It can be acquired by common
people (Psalm 119:32).
When that is practiced in humility and wisdom, people
are attracted. But when utilized in pride and
arrogance, people can't deal with it (Psalms 101:5)
and is reckoned with the lamp of the wicked which
errs (Proverbs 21:4).
Mark Eddy has raised an interesting question, and I
tend to agree with him. The verb in Psalm 25:17 is Hiphil,
which as far as I know requires an object of the verb.
The only word available is "my heart". It looks that the
interpretation that by overcoming troubles, the
psalmist is more firmly rooted in truth is correct.
Finally, I question the universality of semantic domains.
As far as I can tell, the ancient Hebrews had only one
semantic domain that contained wisdom, obedience
to God and worship, they were not separate as in
Western thinking. The wise man was the one who
worshipped God in the way he lived his daily life. But
then there were different kinds of foolishness: the
foolishness of the unlearned was not the same as the
foolishness of the rebellious, and they were designated
by different terms in Hebrew. So where we have one
semantic domain for foolishness, the Hebrews had
two. How many other examples can we find?
Thanks for your response.
Karl W. Randolph.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reinier de Blois" <editor AT sdbh.org>
Dear Karl,
This is a good example to illustrate how the use of semantic domains can
help determine the meaning of a word.
The heart is the seat of knowledge in Hebrew, comparable to the mind in
English. A broad heart simply has plenty of space for increasing knowledge.
There can be no doubt that that is what is meant in 1 Kings 5:9. The
other two words in this verse belong to the domain "Wisdom", so we can
be pretty sure that ROXAB LEB belongs there as well.
XSR LEB is simply the opposite. Usually the same domain: "Wisdom".
Apparently the heart can be the seat of certain attitudes as well. In
Psalm 101:5 and Proverbs 21:4 the semantic domain is the one of pride.
This can also be determined by the presence of a word pair ("high eyes").
Isaiah 60:5 is a little more difficult, but it is quite clear that
"Wisdom" is not the semantic domain here. "Pride" fits better, even
though "Joy" is a viable option as well.
I think the best explanation is the one of the CEV, I think: "your
hearts will swell with pride".
Best wishes,
Reinier de Blois
Karl Randolph wrote:
> What does it mean to have a "broad heart"? In 1 Kings 5:9 God
> gave Solomon wisdom, insight and a broad heart. Isaiah 60:5 I
> admit I'm not sure what is meant. The word PXD in this context
> doesn't seem to fit. Psalms 101:5 it is used in parallel with a
> "high of eyes", an idiom I understand as referring to pride, and
> Proverbs 21:4 again connects it with the wicked. So along with
> the two hiphil uses of the verb you found in Psalms, I have found
> a total of six uses with mixes positive and negative contexts.
>
> Another thought that comes to mind is that it may be the opposite
> of XSR LB, "lacking heart". Without going into a detailed study,
> that phrase is usually connect with the immoral and/or foolish,
> mostly found in Proverbs. It is a sign of weakness that can lead
> to death.
>
> A tentative conclusion is that "broad of heart" is an idiom that
> refers to strength and vitality. In a positive sense, sureness
> and strength of convictions, in a negative sense arrogance and
> trampling down of others. What say ye?
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:09:22 -0300
From: "Ken Penner" <pennerkm AT mcmaster.ca>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] online targums
To: "'Gene Gardner'" <g_gardner1234 AT yahoo.com>,
<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<20050927200923.JRMI29614.simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
For Jonathan, I think you are looking for
http://www.drsbrady.com/ntcs/pj/psjon.htm
The DSS Bible is worth having, though written for a popular audience; it's
by the top scholars in the field.
Ken Penner, McMaster/DSS
Dead Sea Scrolls scholars' list owner,
http://mailman.McMaster.CA/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
Does anyone know where I can find an online English
translation of Targum Jonathan? Also, does anyone on
the list have a copy of The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible,
Edited by Martin G. Abegg, Peter W. Flint and Eugene
Charles Ulrich, and if so, what is your opinion of it?
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:55:41 -0400
From: David P Donnelly <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>
Subject: [b-hebrew] consonant vowel order of )EHYEH & YAHWEH
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Cc: K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk
Message-ID: <20050927.185542.2756.2.davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Read, James C K0434995 at kingston.ac.uk
Mon Sep 26 19:39:31 EDT 2005 wrote:
However, try as I might
I just cannot humanly pronounce this word
with such syllabic separations
without inserting a vocal schwa between the two syllables:
According to b-hebrew transcription guidlines,
the name you are analyzing is transcribed as "YaH:WeH"
I believe that the shewa between the two syllables is a silent shewa,
[a syllable divider],
not a vocal shewa.
Page H. Kelly?s "Biblical Hebrew , An Introductory Grammar" says
on page 13:
The silent shewa, on the other hand, only stands beneath a consonant that
ends a syllable.
The silent shewa, therefore may also be referred to as a syllable
divider.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/264290/YaHWeHdissected.JPG
At the link above you will find an image of my dissection of "YaH:WeH".
Hopefully it is correct.
An icon which appears at the lower right of the image,
allows you to enlarge the image.
Dave Donnelly
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:19:02 +0200
From: Reinier de Blois <editor AT sdbh.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Broad heart
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <433A35D6.7030603 AT sdbh.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Dear Karl,
Karl Randolph wrote:
You are the person to correct me if I am wrong, butIn theory, maybe. I haven't run into such a case yet. The less data the
it is my impression that an over reliance on semantic
domains can lead to incorrect definitions. Is it not
possible for a lexeme to be used only six times in
Tanakh, each in a separate semantic domain, with
the result that it can given six unique definitions, one
for each semantic domain?
more speculative a case becomes
The statement in 1 Kings 5:9 that a broad heartYes, the study of idioms can be very helpful. What is more helpful in
indicates that there was a lot of room to fill with
wisdom sounds very English (as in language) leaving
me to wonder if it fits the Hebrew use at all. Seeing as it
is used in an idiom, shouldn't we look for idiomatic uses
to help understand the meaning?
this case, however, is the triplet "wisdom, intelligence, and a broad
heart".
If (a) and (b) are synonymic if it would be very unlikely for (c) to be
any different. Then, if RXB often signifies "spacious" it is a very
small step to extend that in a more figurative sense to a heart that can
contain much knowledge.
For example, it used to be said that a coward "had aYou are basing your conclusion on an English idiom. Very speculative.
yellow streak up his back". The more cowardly, the
broader the streak, so that a very cowardly person
had "a broad yellow streak..." Like the example above
with 1 Kings and Solomon, "broad" did not refer to
having more room to fill, rather the broader the
stronger the effect.
Now we come to "spacious of heart", an idiomaticIf the root were )MN I would possibly agree with you, but not with RXB.
phrase. You are right that the heart was where people
considered to be the source of thinking. Therefore an
expansive heart is an overpowering intellect. This is not
the scintillating intellect of an Einstein or other brainy
savant, rather the mind that is firmly rooted in its own
verities such that it is not easily swayed by others,
instead sways others. It can be acquired by common
people (Psalm 119:32).
Finally, I question the universality of semantic domains.Semantic domains are NOT universal but differ from one language to
As far as I can tell, the ancient Hebrews had only one
semantic domain that contained wisdom, obedience
to God and worship, they were not separate as in
Western thinking. The wise man was the one who
worshipped God in the way he lived his daily life. But
then there were different kinds of foolishness: the
foolishness of the unlearned was not the same as the
foolishness of the rebellious, and they were designated
by different terms in Hebrew. So where we have one
semantic domain for foolishness, the Hebrews had
two. How many other examples can we find?
another. It is very possible for Hebrew to have two lexical semantic
domains for foolishness. I haven't spend much time on "foolish" yet but
I am aware of the distinction you mentioned above and may come to a
conclusion similar to yours. The semantic domains used in SDBH are based
on a careful study of Hebrew word use and are quite different, for
example, from those used by Louw and Nida for Greek.
Best wishes,
Reinier de Blois
United Bible Societies
editor, Semantic Dictionary of Biblical Hebrew
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:45:57 -0500
From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Broad heart
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20050928134559.2B0C0101D9 AT ws1-3.us4.outblaze.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Reinier:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reinier de Blois" <editor AT sdbh.org>
a case yet. The less data the
Dear Karl,
> Is it not possible for a lexeme to be used
> only six times in Tanakh, each in a separate semantic domain,
> with the result that it can given six unique definitions, one for
> each semantic domain?
>
>
In theory, maybe. I haven't run into such
more speculative a case becomesThe thing that turned me off from the Gesenius/BDB
model of lexicography was the many words I found
with multiple, unique definitions where, when I looked
up the lexemes in a concordance, I found no
justification for the multiple, unique meanings. The worst
example I found had five definitions for a lexeme used
only four times in Tanakh (that was many years ago,
and I have long ago forgotten which word that was).
It appears to me that defining according to semantic
domains risks the same danger. It appears to me that
you already have at least two unique definitions for
the idiomatic phrase "spacious heart", could there be
more?
... What is more helpful inThe idea that "spacious heart" meaning "overpowering
this case, however, is the triplet "wisdom, intelligence, and a broad
heart".
If (a) and (b) are synonymic if it would be very unlikely for (c) to be
any different. Then, if RXB often signifies "spacious" it is a very
small step to extend that in a more figurative sense to a heart that can
contain much knowledge.
mind" (i.e. one not swayed by others, rather sways
them) also fits the triplet. Having wisdom and insight are
not enough, if one lacks the self-confidence to act on
them. And as king and ultimate judge, he had to have
persuasiveness to sway others to follow him, that his
judgments were correct.
Or are you saying that in the negative examples,
where a "spacious heart" is used by a the wicked, that
much knowledge is also implied? In other words, that
much knowledge makes the wicked worse?
How does that fit with Psalm 25:17 which started this
thread? That difficulties give much knowledge?
> ...Ahh, no. I recalled the English example only after I had
You are basing your conclusion on an English idiom. Very speculative.
arrived at a conclusion in Hebrew, then used it as an
example. I agree with your statement, had I started
with the English.
> ... "spacious of heart", an idiomatic phrase. ...)MN doesn't have the same idea of conquering others
> the mind that is firmly rooted in
> its own verities such that it is not easily swayed by others,
> instead sways others.
>
>
If the root were )MN I would possibly agree with you, but not with RXB.
that RXB does. When a nation expands its borders, it
does so by conquest, and for conquest it needs force.
I see an "expansive heart" as one not only sure of itself,
but persuasive to others as well.
...
Best wishes,
Reinier de Blois
United Bible Societies
editor, Semantic Dictionary of Biblical Hebrew
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Karl W. Randolph.
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:01:20 +0300
From: "Vadim Cherny" <VadimCherny AT mail.ru>
Subject: [b-hebrew] Gen 2:6 - Job 36:27
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <002601c5c435$1ddada80$261d000a@athlon64x2>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r"
Genesis 2:6 opens with the word 'ed, commonly translated as "mist" or "inundation."
The last translation, alluding to the flooding of Mesopotamian plains, relies on the Akkadian edu, "flood." Ancients knew that floods are related to rains; 2:5 states that there was no rain yet, and the meaning "flood" is thus unlikely. Flood is associated with destruction, not creation. Hebrew has an attested word for "flood," mabul, etymologically linked to iaval (to flow), and sharing root cell with mebucha (confusion), mavo' (intrusion), mevusa (trampling), and mevuka (desolation).
Egyptian reportedly has a word i3d.t meaning "dew." Interpretations of edu and i3d.t, however, themselves rely on the Hebrew 'ed, and are tentative. Notwithstanding that caveat, Akkadian edu and Egyptian i3d.t may have common semantic. The Akkadian word could equally well mean "cataclysm" or "overhaul." "Dew" is also a return of water.
That Hebrew borrowed an Akkadian or Egyptian word without converting it to three-letter root is unusual. Steinberg reconstructs 'ud (to turn) from 'eid (calamity), 'ud (firebrand; charred from all sides), and 'odot (because; Russian, by way of). The sense of "turn" could be behind 'i as misfortune (change), jackal (dodging animal), and island (wrapped by sea).
The only other instance of 'ed in Tanakh is in Job 36:27-28, "For he would pile the drops of water; they would percolate [as] rain *for its return* which the clouds would pour down." The common translation of l'edo as "from his [divine] vapor" presumes that the ancient writer equalized mist with clouds. Moreover, the laborious "his vapor" ignores that "his" is not used in the context for more important things, like water and rain, and that the immediate antecedent for 3ms suffix is "rain." The translation "vapor" also runs into a problem of preposition le, which it very unusually renders "from." 36:28 starts with "which"; if 'ed is a noun, it should be the antecedent, yet, vapor cannot be plausibly poured down.
The meaning of 'ed seems to be "turn, change."
Vadim Cherny
------------------------------
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End of b-hebrew Digest, Vol 33, Issue 43
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- Re: [b-hebrew] b-hebrew Digest, Vol 33, Issue 43, John Gray, 09/28/2005
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