Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] Verb Inflection & Tense

b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Biblical Hebrew Forum

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
  • To: "Vadim Cherny" <VadimCherny AT mail.ru>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Verb Inflection & Tense
  • Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:21:17 +0100

It has been recently demonstrated to you that neither tenses nor aspects are
grammaticalised in
the English language.

Yesterday I wrote. (Past tense, Perfect aspect)
I wrote to her every day (past tense, imperfect aspect)
If I wrote you a blank check now...(Present tense, perfect aspect)
If I never wrote to you again (future tense, perfect and imperfect aspect)

The same can be said of Russian.

chto delaesh? What are you doing? (now)
chto delaesh? What do you do? (every day i.e past and future)

Examples of this behaviour can be found in every language and it is clear
that neither tense nor aspect
is 100% grammaticalised in any language. However, the understanding of past,
present, future, completed,
unique, repeated, habitual etc. actions is present in every language and it
is always the context that decides
this.
As context is such a vague expression, allow me to rephrase that. It is the
combinations of 'words' that convey
the sense of tense, aspect, continuation, repetition etc. and it is therefore
unreasonable to assign a rigid tense
to a particular form which exists outside of a context and then insist that
such a form have that tense in every
context it is found in. This is the basis of my translation machine.


This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.
>From k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk Sun Sep 18 07:35:15 2005
Return-Path: <k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail57.messagelabs.com (mail57.messagelabs.com
[195.245.230.115])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 265564C00B
for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Sun, 18 Sep 2005 07:35:15 -0400
(EDT)
X-VirusChecked: Checked
X-Env-Sender: k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk
X-Msg-Ref: server-7.tower-57.messagelabs.com!1127043313!86458833!1
X-StarScan-Version: 5.4.15; banners=kingston.ac.uk,-,-
X-Originating-IP: [141.241.2.22]
Received: (qmail 15172 invoked from network); 18 Sep 2005 11:35:13 -0000
Received: from kuexim3.king.ac.uk (141.241.2.22)
by server-7.tower-57.messagelabs.com with SMTP;
18 Sep 2005 11:35:13 -0000
Received: from [141.241.17.18] (helo=KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk)
by kuexim3.king.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1EGxRx-0005MX-3i
for b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org; Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:35:13 +0100
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:35:11 +0100
Message-ID:
<6B84A53BD25BCA46B070A05DD8C8C9F874EEA1 AT KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk>
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: Raamses
Thread-Index: AcW79YiVbap1DC4VTCG/FhWO42JkHAAThS2u
From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
To: <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.6
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Raamses
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
<mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
<mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 11:35:15 -0000

Dear Yitzhak,

Raamses II is accredited to being of the 13th century. His name means
begotten of Ra (the son god) i.e. Ra's son. It was believed that he was the
pharoah of the exodus based on inscriptions claiming that he built the city
of
the same name by use of slavery. However, this assumption is weak because the
city he built (per-ramses)
was described as the capital city of his time and as such should not be
connected with the mere storage place
of the biblical ramses. Furthermore, the exodus (circa 1513) happened 200
-300 years before his reign and so
the exodus could not have started from a city which had not even been built
yet.

D.B Redford comments 'Biblical Raamses and the capital Pr R'-ms-sw, apart
from the personal name, seem
to have nothing in common. In the lack of corroborative evidence it is
absolutely essential to exercise caution
in equating the two' (Vetus Testamentum, Leiden, page 410, 1963

This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.
>From k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk Sun Sep 18 07:54:43 2005
Return-Path: <k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail56.messagelabs.com (mail56.messagelabs.com
[193.109.254.67])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 87B684C00B
for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Sun, 18 Sep 2005 07:54:43 -0400
(EDT)
X-VirusChecked: Checked
X-Env-Sender: k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk
X-Msg-Ref: server-4.tower-56.messagelabs.com!1127044481!46951098!1
X-StarScan-Version: 5.4.15; banners=kingston.ac.uk,-,-
X-Originating-IP: [141.241.2.18]
Received: (qmail 30248 invoked from network); 18 Sep 2005 11:54:41 -0000
Received: from kuexim2.king.ac.uk (141.241.2.18)
by server-4.tower-56.messagelabs.com with SMTP;
18 Sep 2005 11:54:41 -0000
Received: from [141.241.17.18] (helo=KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk)
by kuexim2.king.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1EGxkn-0001Hp-F1
for b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org; Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:54:41 +0100
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:54:40 +0100
Message-ID:
<6B84A53BD25BCA46B070A05DD8C8C9F874EEA2 AT KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk>
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: Chronology & time of the exodus
Thread-Index: AcW79YiVbap1DC4VTCG/FhWO42JkHAAT/Og7
From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
To: <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.6
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [b-hebrew] Chronology & time of the exodus
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
<mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
<mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 11:54:43 -0000

Dear Yitzhak,

In order to build a chronology we need a reference point which is well
established. Let's use the
return from exile, which took place in 537. The desolation took place 70
years earlier and that
takes us back to 607. Ezekiel tells us (in prophetic language) that the
division of the kingdoms of
Isreal and Judah took place 390 years earlier. This brings us to 997. Solomon
reigned 40 years and
begun temple construction in his 3rd year. So the temple began to be built in
1034. 1Ki6:1 tells us that
the temple began to be built in the 480th year after the exodus. This takes
us to 1513. 430 years earlier
Yah struck a deal with Abraham, 1943. Adding up the generations back to the
flood we get 427 years
and this places the flood at 2370. Then you just add up the generations again
and this takes you back
to our great, great, great, great ...grandad Adam who was born in 4026,
approx 6 thousand years ago.

Of course, I would welcome you criticisms as it would help me to gain a
better understanding of
this chronology.

Shalom

This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.
>From VadimCherny AT mail.ru Sun Sep 18 08:03:11 2005
Return-Path: <VadimCherny AT mail.ru>
X-Original-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mx1.mail.ru (mx1.mail.ru [194.67.23.121])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086364C00B
for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; Sun, 18 Sep 2005 08:03:11 -0400
(EDT)
Received: from [80.90.225.150] (port773 helo=vadim)
by mx1.mail.ru with asmtp
id 1EGxsz-0000w6-00; Sun, 18 Sep 2005 16:03:09 +0400
Message-ID: <000f01c5bc49$48b05f80$261d000a@vadim>
From: "Vadim Cherny" <VadimCherny AT mail.ru>
To: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
References:
<6B84A53BD25BCA46B070A05DD8C8C9F874EEA0 AT KUDBEX01.kuds.kingston.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 15:05:37 +0300
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.6
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Verb Inflection & Tense
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Hebrew Bible List <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
<mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
<mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:03:11 -0000

Re: [b-hebrew] Verb Inflection & Tense> Examples of this behaviour can be
found in every language and it is clear that neither tense nor aspect is 100%
grammaticalised in any language.

We discuss a different issue, if you see the logical difference. Of course,
no semantical concept is fully grammaticalized; no one argues that.
Rather, the issue is what the grammaticalized devices represent: tense,
aspect, or anything else.

Now, a hypothesis is accepted if it passes three tests:

- known facts generally conform to the hypothesis
- non-conforming facts are few and explainable deviations (deictic shifts or
grammatical errors, in our case)
- Occam's

The tense hypothesis is the simplest, and passes Occam's. Grammatical errors
and deictic shifts can't be many.
There is only one real test: are there non-conformiung facts, that is, the
verbs which are contextually meaningless if read as tenses? So far, all the
examples offered made sense as tenses.

And my question to Rolf and other adherents of the aspects theory: could you
offer an example of yiqtol which clearly does not refer to the future events,
and not deictically shifted? I postulate that no such example exists. Could
anyone prove the opposite?

Vadim Cherny


As context is such a vague expression, allow me to rephrase that. It is the
combinations of 'words' that convey
the sense of tense, aspect, continuation, repetition etc. and it is
therefore unreasonable to assign a rigid tense
to a particular form which exists outside of a context and then insist that
such a form have that tense in every
context it is found in. This is the basis of my translation machine.


This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.




Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page