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  • From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
  • To: "Yitzhak Sapir" <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] nevi
  • Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:17:18 +0100


Hi Yitzhak,

that the isrealite society depended heavily on astronomical observations in
order to measure their
times and seasons is undeniable. But why insist that this meant their society
was superstitious
and believed in astrology? Are the two concepts so inseperable?

That the isrealites were disobedient is also undeniable. That they took on
practices from the nations
yet still undeniable and so consequently it is reasonable to assume that a
number of isrealites practiced
astrology. But does this mean that this was an acceptable practice? Hardly!

Now the idea that Abraham was somewhat of an astronomer is likely as Yah
invites him to count the stars
if he were able. Living in tents in a land devoid of modernday streetlamps
would have offered Abraham
plentiful occasions to observe many beautiful starlit nights especially when
nature called in the middle
of the night. And understanding the stars may also have offered him benefits
in offering a means to
understand which month he was in and therefore better understand how his
great herds and following could
live of the land. Did the patriarch Abraham believe in astrology? Debatable,
being such a close friend
of Yah you'd think Yah would have had plenty of opportunities to put him
straight on these issues.

Did navi) originally mean astronomer? Well now that's worth discussing and I
would be interested in
hearing what the testimonies from the cognate languages are of the root nb)
if anyone knows.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Yitzhak Sapir
Sent: Sat 8/20/2005 8:36 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] nevi

On 8/19/05, Ben Crick wrote:
> [quoting me]
> > ... At the time, astrology was inseparable from astronomy,
> > and calendar computations depended on astronomical sightings. Are
> > you sure that Isaiah 8:19 includes astrology? This would really make
> > no sense if Isaiah is an astrologer, as Isaiah 38:8 might suggest (but
> > not necessarily although I think it definitely raises the issue).
> > Perhaps only certain forms of occultism were not allowed.
>
> Astrology in the occult sense would imply casting horoscopes or going into
> trances, which was presumably the stock-in-trade of the 'oBoWT and the
> YiDD:`oNiYM with their familiar spirits. Micah 3:11 talks of professional
> soothsayers who divine for reward, root QSM. This would include practices
> such as hepatoscopy, mentioned in Ezekiel 21:21. Deuteronomy 18:9-12 gives
> a list of the abominations of the nations.

I would prefer not to make any assumptions or identify an )ob or yd(ny with
each other or with astrology lacking any evidence for such. Why would you
assume that astrology implies going into a trance? Or that an )ob or yd(ny
implies casting horoscopes or going into trances? And even if we suppose
that both of them go into trances, why do you presume that this means both
are not allowed? Perhaps even if an ")ob" does enter a trance, it is not the
trance itself that is not proper but the performance of it in an ")ob" way.
Perhaps an ")ob trance" is the wrong way to inquire of God, and astrology
is a proper way? In any case, none of the above that you quoted suggests
that astrologers would go into trances, or that an )ob or yd(ny or any other
listed "abomination" relates to astrology.

I don't believe in astrology but it is my impression that at the time,
especially
for a lunisolar calendar as most likely existed in Israelite and
Judaean society,
astrology was indispensible. For example, astronomical observations were
used to compute which month should be made a leap month, the leap month
carrying with it astrological omens as well.

Yitzhak Sapir
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Vowel question
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On 8/20/05, Yigal Levin wrote:
> Shalom all,
>
> The third word in Deut. 5:24 (vs. 27 in the English), "and hear", is
> voacalized
> "u$ama(", with a hataph patah under the shin, instead of the expected
> sheva.
> Any ideas why?

My concordance lists it as the pausal form of the word, pointing out
it appears also
in 2 Kings 19:16, Isaiah 37:17, and Daniel 9:18. The qamats in place
of the patah
is also a difference from the normal form. Perhaps the hataf patah comes to
stress the schwa which might otherwise be taken for a silent schwa.

Yitzhak Sapir




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