Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

Thanx Ben.

I noticed there was another significant factor about false prophets in 
Jeremiah23:27.

I am working on a theory about the language used in the torah. As a teacher 
of English to other cultures
I learnt a lot about the English language and stumbled across two very 
interesting facts. 1) English has 
the largest vocabulary of all languages in the world. 2) Most of this 
vocabulary is rarely used and 70%
of spoken English makes use of a corpus of only 2000 words that are common to 
everday speech.

My theory about the language of the torah is that it was devoid of 
specialistic terminology and that its 
vocabulary was entirely drawn form the relatively small corpus of everyday 
language terms.According to my 
theory the literal translation of the word 'navi)' in reference to Abraham 
would not be prophet as this 
is a highly specialised religious term that carries a great deal of 
connatations. 
I am searching for a word/small-phrase that would translate 'navi)' in terms 
that can be found in the 
core corpus of the English language and could be considered as natural 
speech. As has already been observed 
'forth-teller' belongs to the core corpus but does not reflect natural 
speech. Any suggestions?

I was thinking along the lines of 'representative' or something a little less 
formal.
All help greatly appreciated.


-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Ben Crick
Sent: Fri 8/19/2005 5:47 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] nevi
 
On Fri 19 Aug 2005 (00:52:58 +0000), yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com wrote:
> ...  At the time, astrology was inseparable from astronomy,
> and calendar computations depended on astronomical sightings.  Are
> you sure that Isaiah 8:19 includes astrology?  This would really make
> no sense if Isaiah is an astrologer, as Isaiah 38:8 might suggest (but 
> not necessarily although I think it definitely raises the issue). 
> Perhaps only certain forms of occultism were not allowed.

 Astrology in the occult sense would imply casting horoscopes or going into
 trances, which was presumably the stock-in-trade of the 'oBoWT and the
 YiDD:`oNiYM with their familiar spirits. Micah 3:11 talks of professional
 soothsayers who divine for reward, root QSM. This would include practices
 such as hepatoscopy, mentioned in Ezekiel 21:21. Deuteronomy 18:9-12 gives
 a list of the abominations of the nations.

 The true prophet of YHWH is not an occultist, but one who has stood in the
 Council of YHWH, SoWD-YHWH (Jeremiah 23:18, 22; cf Job 1:6; 2:1). Prophets
 did not volunteer; they were called. Each biblical Prophet features his Call
 Vision in his book.

 Jeremiah had big trouble with the false prophets; how could one distinguish
 between the true and the false?  Chapters 23, 28 and 29 provide the answer.
 True prophets did not commit adultery or "walk in lies" (Jeremiah 23:14),
 neither did they encourage sin (23:17, 22; 29:23).

 Isaiah provides the criterion of Future Prophecy. YHWH challenges the
 prophets of the Baals to foretell the future (Isaiah 41:21-24). Deuteronomy
 18:21-22 lays down accurate future prophecy as the criterion of a true
 prophet. Jeremiah 28:9 echoes this.

 It seems that prophecy has two functions: (1) as a Present Persuader to
 urge God's people to mend their ways, etc; (2) as a Future Confirmer, so
 that when it happens everyone will recognise what is happening, and take
 the prescribed steps to avoid disaster. These functions are those we label
 Forthtelling and Foretelling respectively.

 Well, James, if you are reading this: we've come a long way from Abraham.
 But even Enoch was a prophet, in that he named his some Methuselah, "when
 I die it happens". The year the oldest of them all died, the Flood came.

 Ben
-- 
 Revd Ben Crick, BA CF                                       ZFC Hf
 <ben.crick AT NOSPAM.argonet.co.uk>
 232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK)
*Acorn RPC700, RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126MB, 4.3GB HD, x32CDROM
*Castle Iyonix X100, RO5.06, 600MHz XScale processor, 512MB DDR RAM,
 114GB HD, CD-RW, etc. *Ethernet networking.



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Thanx Ben.

I noticed there was another significant factor about false prophets in 
Jeremiah23:27.

I am working on a theory about the language used in the torah. As a teacher 
of English to other cultures
I learnt a lot about the English language and stumbled across two very 
interesting facts. 1) English has 
the largest vocabulary of all languages in the world. 2) Most of this 
vocabulary is rarely used and 70%
of spoken English makes use of a corpus of only 2000 words that are common to 
everday speech.

My theory about the language of the torah is that it was devoid of 
specialistic terminology and that its 
vocabulary was entirely drawn form the relatively small corpus of everyday 
language terms.According to my 
theory the literal translation of the word 'navi)' in reference to Abraham 
would not be prophet as this 
is a highly specialised religious term that carries a great deal of 
connatations. 
I am searching for a word/small-phrase that would translate 'navi)' in terms 
that can be found in the 
core corpus of the English language and could be considered as natural 
speech. As has already been observed 
'forth-teller' belongs to the core corpus but does not reflect natural 
speech. Any suggestions?

I was thinking along the lines of 'representative' or something a little less 
formal.
All help greatly appreciated.


-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Ben Crick
Sent: Fri 8/19/2005 5:47 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] nevi
 
On Fri 19 Aug 2005 (00:52:58 +0000), yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com wrote:
> ...  At the time, astrology was inseparable from astronomy,
> and calendar computations depended on astronomical sightings.  Are
> you sure that Isaiah 8:19 includes astrology?  This would really make
> no sense if Isaiah is an astrologer, as Isaiah 38:8 might suggest (but 
> not necessarily although I think it definitely raises the issue). 
> Perhaps only certain forms of occultism were not allowed.

 Astrology in the occult sense would imply casting horoscopes or going into
 trances, which was presumably the stock-in-trade of the 'oBoWT and the
 YiDD:`oNiYM with their familiar spirits. Micah 3:11 talks of professional
 soothsayers who divine for reward, root QSM. This would include practices
 such as hepatoscopy, mentioned in Ezekiel 21:21. Deuteronomy 18:9-12 gives
 a list of the abominations of the nations.

 The true prophet of YHWH is not an occultist, but one who has stood in the
 Council of YHWH, SoWD-YHWH (Jeremiah 23:18, 22; cf Job 1:6; 2:1). Prophets
 did not volunteer; they were called. Each biblical Prophet features his Call
 Vision in his book.

 Jeremiah had big trouble with the false prophets; how could one distinguish
 between the true and the false?  Chapters 23, 28 and 29 provide the answer.
 True prophets did not commit adultery or "walk in lies" (Jeremiah 23:14),
 neither did they encourage sin (23:17, 22; 29:23).

 Isaiah provides the criterion of Future Prophecy. YHWH challenges the
 prophets of the Baals to foretell the future (Isaiah 41:21-24). Deuteronomy
 18:21-22 lays down accurate future prophecy as the criterion of a true
 prophet. Jeremiah 28:9 echoes this.

 It seems that prophecy has two functions: (1) as a Present Persuader to
 urge God's people to mend their ways, etc; (2) as a Future Confirmer, so
 that when it happens everyone will recognise what is happening, and take
 the prescribed steps to avoid disaster. These functions are those we label
 Forthtelling and Foretelling respectively.

 Well, James, if you are reading this: we've come a long way from Abraham.
 But even Enoch was a prophet, in that he named his some Methuselah, "when
 I die it happens". The year the oldest of them all died, the Flood came.

 Ben
-- 
 Revd Ben Crick, BA CF                                       ZFC Hf
 <ben.crick AT NOSPAM.argonet.co.uk>
 232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK)
*Acorn RPC700, RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126MB, 4.3GB HD, x32CDROM
*Castle Iyonix X100, RO5.06, 600MHz XScale processor, 512MB DDR RAM,
 114GB HD, CD-RW, etc. *Ethernet networking.



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According to Gins.MAS,VolI pp25,26 %115 the following sections of the torah 
have 'adonai' in many MSS
while 'best' MSS have YHWH.
 
Gen 18:3,27,30,31,32;  19:18; 20:4;
Exo 4:10,13;  5:22;  15:17;  34:9;
Num 14:7



Does anyone know what MSS/fragments this is based on?
Any opinions about the correct rendition?
Proposed reasons for this inconsistency?

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On 8/19/05, Ben Crick wrote:
> [quoting me]
> > ...  At the time, astrology was inseparable from astronomy,
> > and calendar computations depended on astronomical sightings.  Are
> > you sure that Isaiah 8:19 includes astrology?  This would really make
> > no sense if Isaiah is an astrologer, as Isaiah 38:8 might suggest (but
> > not necessarily although I think it definitely raises the issue).
> > Perhaps only certain forms of occultism were not allowed.
> 
>  Astrology in the occult sense would imply casting horoscopes or going into
>  trances, which was presumably the stock-in-trade of the 'oBoWT and the
>  YiDD:`oNiYM with their familiar spirits. Micah 3:11 talks of professional
>  soothsayers who divine for reward, root QSM. This would include practices
>  such as hepatoscopy, mentioned in Ezekiel 21:21. Deuteronomy 18:9-12 gives
>  a list of the abominations of the nations.

I would prefer not to make any assumptions or identify an )ob or yd(ny with 
each other or with astrology lacking any evidence for such.  Why would you 
assume that astrology implies going into a trance? Or that an )ob or yd(ny 
implies casting horoscopes or going into trances? And even if we suppose 
that both of them go into trances, why do you presume that this means both 
are not allowed?  Perhaps even if an ")ob" does enter a trance, it is not the 
trance itself that is not proper but the performance of it in an ")ob" way.  
Perhaps an ")ob trance" is the wrong way to inquire of God, and astrology 
is a proper way?  In any case, none of the above that you quoted suggests
that astrologers would go into trances, or that an )ob or yd(ny or any other
listed "abomination" relates to astrology.  

I don't believe in astrology but it is my impression that at the time,
especially
for a lunisolar calendar as most likely existed in Israelite and
Judaean society,
astrology was indispensible.  For example, astronomical observations were 
used to compute which month should be made a leap month, the leap month 
carrying with it astrological omens as well.  

Yitzhak Sapir