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  • From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
  • To: "Ben Crick" <ben.crick AT argonet.co.uk>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] nevi
  • Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:30:56 +0100

Thanx Ben.

I noticed there was another significant factor about false prophets in
Jeremiah23:27.

I am working on a theory about the language used in the torah. As a teacher
of English to other cultures
I learnt a lot about the English language and stumbled across two very
interesting facts. 1) English has
the largest vocabulary of all languages in the world. 2) Most of this
vocabulary is rarely used and 70%
of spoken English makes use of a corpus of only 2000 words that are common to
everday speech.

My theory about the language of the torah is that it was devoid of
specialistic terminology and that its
vocabulary was entirely drawn form the relatively small corpus of everyday
language terms.According to my
theory the literal translation of the word 'navi)' in reference to Abraham
would not be prophet as this
is a highly specialised religious term that carries a great deal of
connatations.
I am searching for a word/small-phrase that would translate 'navi)' in terms
that can be found in the
core corpus of the English language and could be considered as natural
speech. As has already been observed
'forth-teller' belongs to the core corpus but does not reflect natural
speech. Any suggestions?

I was thinking along the lines of 'representative' or something a little less
formal.
All help greatly appreciated.


-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Ben Crick
Sent: Fri 8/19/2005 5:47 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] nevi

On Fri 19 Aug 2005 (00:52:58 +0000), yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com wrote:
> ... At the time, astrology was inseparable from astronomy,
> and calendar computations depended on astronomical sightings. Are
> you sure that Isaiah 8:19 includes astrology? This would really make
> no sense if Isaiah is an astrologer, as Isaiah 38:8 might suggest (but
> not necessarily although I think it definitely raises the issue).
> Perhaps only certain forms of occultism were not allowed.

Astrology in the occult sense would imply casting horoscopes or going into
trances, which was presumably the stock-in-trade of the 'oBoWT and the
YiDD:`oNiYM with their familiar spirits. Micah 3:11 talks of professional
soothsayers who divine for reward, root QSM. This would include practices
such as hepatoscopy, mentioned in Ezekiel 21:21. Deuteronomy 18:9-12 gives
a list of the abominations of the nations.

The true prophet of YHWH is not an occultist, but one who has stood in the
Council of YHWH, SoWD-YHWH (Jeremiah 23:18, 22; cf Job 1:6; 2:1). Prophets
did not volunteer; they were called. Each biblical Prophet features his Call
Vision in his book.

Jeremiah had big trouble with the false prophets; how could one distinguish
between the true and the false? Chapters 23, 28 and 29 provide the answer.
True prophets did not commit adultery or "walk in lies" (Jeremiah 23:14),
neither did they encourage sin (23:17, 22; 29:23).

Isaiah provides the criterion of Future Prophecy. YHWH challenges the
prophets of the Baals to foretell the future (Isaiah 41:21-24). Deuteronomy
18:21-22 lays down accurate future prophecy as the criterion of a true
prophet. Jeremiah 28:9 echoes this.

It seems that prophecy has two functions: (1) as a Present Persuader to
urge God's people to mend their ways, etc; (2) as a Future Confirmer, so
that when it happens everyone will recognise what is happening, and take
the prescribed steps to avoid disaster. These functions are those we label
Forthtelling and Foretelling respectively.

Well, James, if you are reading this: we've come a long way from Abraham.
But even Enoch was a prophet, in that he named his some Methuselah, "when
I die it happens". The year the oldest of them all died, the Flood came.

Ben
--
Revd Ben Crick, BA CF ZFC Hf
<ben.crick AT NOSPAM.argonet.co.uk>
232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK)
*Acorn RPC700, RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126MB, 4.3GB HD, x32CDROM
*Castle Iyonix X100, RO5.06, 600MHz XScale processor, 512MB DDR RAM,
114GB HD, CD-RW, etc. *Ethernet networking.



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Thanx Ben.

I noticed there was another significant factor about false prophets in
Jeremiah23:27.

I am working on a theory about the language used in the torah. As a teacher
of English to other cultures
I learnt a lot about the English language and stumbled across two very
interesting facts. 1) English has
the largest vocabulary of all languages in the world. 2) Most of this
vocabulary is rarely used and 70%
of spoken English makes use of a corpus of only 2000 words that are common to
everday speech.

My theory about the language of the torah is that it was devoid of
specialistic terminology and that its
vocabulary was entirely drawn form the relatively small corpus of everyday
language terms.According to my
theory the literal translation of the word 'navi)' in reference to Abraham
would not be prophet as this
is a highly specialised religious term that carries a great deal of
connatations.
I am searching for a word/small-phrase that would translate 'navi)' in terms
that can be found in the
core corpus of the English language and could be considered as natural
speech. As has already been observed
'forth-teller' belongs to the core corpus but does not reflect natural
speech. Any suggestions?

I was thinking along the lines of 'representative' or something a little less
formal.
All help greatly appreciated.


-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Ben Crick
Sent: Fri 8/19/2005 5:47 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] nevi

On Fri 19 Aug 2005 (00:52:58 +0000), yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com wrote:
> ... At the time, astrology was inseparable from astronomy,
> and calendar computations depended on astronomical sightings. Are
> you sure that Isaiah 8:19 includes astrology? This would really make
> no sense if Isaiah is an astrologer, as Isaiah 38:8 might suggest (but
> not necessarily although I think it definitely raises the issue).
> Perhaps only certain forms of occultism were not allowed.

Astrology in the occult sense would imply casting horoscopes or going into
trances, which was presumably the stock-in-trade of the 'oBoWT and the
YiDD:`oNiYM with their familiar spirits. Micah 3:11 talks of professional
soothsayers who divine for reward, root QSM. This would include practices
such as hepatoscopy, mentioned in Ezekiel 21:21. Deuteronomy 18:9-12 gives
a list of the abominations of the nations.

The true prophet of YHWH is not an occultist, but one who has stood in the
Council of YHWH, SoWD-YHWH (Jeremiah 23:18, 22; cf Job 1:6; 2:1). Prophets
did not volunteer; they were called. Each biblical Prophet features his Call
Vision in his book.

Jeremiah had big trouble with the false prophets; how could one distinguish
between the true and the false? Chapters 23, 28 and 29 provide the answer.
True prophets did not commit adultery or "walk in lies" (Jeremiah 23:14),
neither did they encourage sin (23:17, 22; 29:23).

Isaiah provides the criterion of Future Prophecy. YHWH challenges the
prophets of the Baals to foretell the future (Isaiah 41:21-24). Deuteronomy
18:21-22 lays down accurate future prophecy as the criterion of a true
prophet. Jeremiah 28:9 echoes this.

It seems that prophecy has two functions: (1) as a Present Persuader to
urge God's people to mend their ways, etc; (2) as a Future Confirmer, so
that when it happens everyone will recognise what is happening, and take
the prescribed steps to avoid disaster. These functions are those we label
Forthtelling and Foretelling respectively.

Well, James, if you are reading this: we've come a long way from Abraham.
But even Enoch was a prophet, in that he named his some Methuselah, "when
I die it happens". The year the oldest of them all died, the Flood came.

Ben
--
Revd Ben Crick, BA CF ZFC Hf
<ben.crick AT NOSPAM.argonet.co.uk>
232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK)
*Acorn RPC700, RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126MB, 4.3GB HD, x32CDROM
*Castle Iyonix X100, RO5.06, 600MHz XScale processor, 512MB DDR RAM,
114GB HD, CD-RW, etc. *Ethernet networking.



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According to Gins.MAS,VolI pp25,26 %115 the following sections of the torah
have 'adonai' in many MSS
while 'best' MSS have YHWH.

Gen 18:3,27,30,31,32; 19:18; 20:4;
Exo 4:10,13; 5:22; 15:17; 34:9;
Num 14:7



Does anyone know what MSS/fragments this is based on?
Any opinions about the correct rendition?
Proposed reasons for this inconsistency?

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On 8/19/05, Ben Crick wrote:
> [quoting me]
> > ... At the time, astrology was inseparable from astronomy,
> > and calendar computations depended on astronomical sightings. Are
> > you sure that Isaiah 8:19 includes astrology? This would really make
> > no sense if Isaiah is an astrologer, as Isaiah 38:8 might suggest (but
> > not necessarily although I think it definitely raises the issue).
> > Perhaps only certain forms of occultism were not allowed.
>
> Astrology in the occult sense would imply casting horoscopes or going into
> trances, which was presumably the stock-in-trade of the 'oBoWT and the
> YiDD:`oNiYM with their familiar spirits. Micah 3:11 talks of professional
> soothsayers who divine for reward, root QSM. This would include practices
> such as hepatoscopy, mentioned in Ezekiel 21:21. Deuteronomy 18:9-12 gives
> a list of the abominations of the nations.

I would prefer not to make any assumptions or identify an )ob or yd(ny with
each other or with astrology lacking any evidence for such. Why would you
assume that astrology implies going into a trance? Or that an )ob or yd(ny
implies casting horoscopes or going into trances? And even if we suppose
that both of them go into trances, why do you presume that this means both
are not allowed? Perhaps even if an ")ob" does enter a trance, it is not the
trance itself that is not proper but the performance of it in an ")ob" way.
Perhaps an ")ob trance" is the wrong way to inquire of God, and astrology
is a proper way? In any case, none of the above that you quoted suggests
that astrologers would go into trances, or that an )ob or yd(ny or any other
listed "abomination" relates to astrology.

I don't believe in astrology but it is my impression that at the time,
especially
for a lunisolar calendar as most likely existed in Israelite and
Judaean society,
astrology was indispensible. For example, astronomical observations were
used to compute which month should be made a leap month, the leap month
carrying with it astrological omens as well.

Yitzhak Sapir




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