Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Schmuel <schmuel AT escape.com>]

Hi b-hebrew,

Isaiah 9 :6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall 
be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The 
mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

Charles Rempel
> The words for Wonderful Counselor in Isaiah 9:6 are translated without a 
> comma in the NASB and 
> with a comma in KJV..... the word for Wonderful is a common noun masculine 
> singular and the the 
> word for counselor is Qal participle masculine singular. I know that th Qal 
> participle is used in a 
> nominative sense and so could be translatd as a separate characteristic of 
> Christ. Is there anything > which would contribute to translating one way 
> or the other?

Schmuel
Great question :-)  

Jim,
> First, its 9:5 in Hebrew. The first word- pele- is a simple masculine 
> singular (segholate) noun. = 
> "wonder, marvel" the second- the verb yoetz- is a qal masc. singular 
> participle. = "to advise, 
> counsel"
>     the LXX has "messenger of mighty counsel"
>     the Targum has "wonderful counselor"
>     the Vulgate has "Admirabilis, consiliarus"

Hi Jim,

  John Gill also gives a little backdrop on the early translations, basically 
confirming 

http://www.gospelcom.net/eword/comments/isaiah/gill/isaiah9.htm
"Counsellor; this some read in conjunction with the former title, thus, 
"Wonderful Counsellor";
   so the Arabic version; 
   and the Septuagint, which calls him, "the Angel of the great council"; 
   and the Targum is, "who does wonderfully in council;"

Jim
> The simple, straightforward exposition (translation) of the phrase in 
> hebrew is "marvelous advisor" or 
> the more common "wonderful counselor".

Schmuel
   From what you say, I gather either thought "wonderful, counselor" (noun, 
noun), or "wonderful counselor" (adjective,noun) could possibly be 
represented with the same Hebrew expression, even though wonderful is 
grammatically a noun. 

      However, is there a different construction that *could* be used, or 
that would be more clear , 
if  'wonderful'  was defined as an adjective ?  I believe that we haven't 
answered that, and Charles
was putting it forth.

      Here are some folks who seems to think so.  I really don't know if they 
are right or wrong on the technical Hebrew, so comments here would be 
welcome.  The first one repeats what we know, giving his grammatical 
interpretation.  The second one is either in over his head, or making a deep 
point :-)

http://www.fbfi.org/WebMan/Article.asp?ID=3809&Count=false
God in a Manger - Adam Blumer
Many writers and scholars alike mistakenly treat the word wonderful as an 
adjective as in "Wonderful Counsellor" (with the comma deleted). Actually, in 
the original Hebrew, the word wonderful of Isaiah 9:6 stands alone as a 
noun...

http://forums.strang.com/viewtopic.php?start=15&t=1300
Modern translations remove the comma between Wonderful and Counsellor thereby 
removing one of the titles of Jesus Christ changing it from a noun to an 
adjective. The difference in this example is in an accent in the Hebrew or as 
Jesus called them: a tittle. 

Jim
> (and hence is the origin of the common contained in the KJV)

Schmuel
Well I don't claim to know anything about commas in Latin, 
   ( www.crosswalk.com has 'Admirabilis consiliarius' )
but it is not likely that the King James Bible gave the Vulgate much notice.

Generally both the socalled LXX and the Vulgate were simply noted as 
auxiliary sources and bypassed in the King James Bible Tanach,
translated using the Ben Hayim Masoretic Text as the primary source text,
by men who were skilled semiticists.

Note that the Greek OT (the socalled LXX), as often, varies greatly.
Personally I do not consider it of much relevance, but for background
here is a differing Greek OT text.

“Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty One, Potentate, Prince of Peace, Father of the 
age to come.”­The Septuagint, as found in the Codex Alexandrinus, translated 
by Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton, c. 1850. 

Thanks for the forum.  Good stuff.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
Queens, NY
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/