Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>]

"Maurice A. O'Sullivan" <mauros AT iol.ie> wrote:At 16:28 30/12/2004, Uri 
Hurwitz wrote:
  
participles are nouns:  e.g. hu yoshev  -- he is (in a state of) sitting.

Bad example to choose, Uri: have a look at this definition from the Concise 
Oxford English Dictionary ( 11th. edition 2004 }

>>  participle: a word formed from a verb (e.g. going, gone, being, been) and 
>>  used  as  an
adjective or noun (as in burnt  toast,  good  breeding)  or  used  to  make 
compound verb forms (is going, has been).

  UH: strange,  in  my Concise  Oxford Dictionary  (admittedly much older 
than 2004) the definiton of participle reads :" n. Verbal adjective  
qualifying noun but retaining some properties of verb, e.g. tense and 
government of object."

   Thus clear emphasis here for noun. As for BH, which, after all is the 
subject of the discussion, another example:

    Naarah Yafah   -- a girl (in a state of) beauty; in more idiomatic 
English -- a beautiful girl.

   Uri

   

"When you know a thing, to hold that you know it, and when you do not know a 
thing, to allow that you do not know it: This is knowledge."
Confucius. --- Well, yes, but there must be one or more definitions of 
knowledge that Confucius would have accepted?




                
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>From gfsomsel AT juno.com  Thu Dec 30 17:47:29 2004
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To: jwest AT highland.net
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:47:59 -0600
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 9:6 Wonderful Counselor
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On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:19:35 -0500 Jim West <jwest AT highland.net> writes:
> At 05:05 PM 12/30/2004, you wrote:
> 
> >Jim
> > > The simple, straightforward exposition (translation) of the 
> phrase in 
> > hebrew is "marvelous advisor" or
> > > the more common "wonderful counselor".
> >
> >Schmuel
> >    From what you say, I gather either thought "wonderful, 
> counselor" 
> > (noun, noun), or "wonderful counselor" (adjective,noun) could 
> possibly be 
> > represented with the same Hebrew expression, even though wonderful 
> is 
> > grammatically a noun.
> 
> Its the construction itself that gives the hint at proper 
> translation.  Hebrew is capable of piling up nouns.  Here we have a 
> 
> participle and a noun.  That combination forms a hendiadys.  A 
> hendiadys 
> indicates that two words modify one another- it is literally a 
> "saying one 
> thing with two words".
___________________

This is not the first time that you have stated this.  The first time I
let it pass, but you persist in repeating what is factually incorrect. 
There is no hendiadys involved here.  To qualify as hendiadys there must
be a copula between the two terms.  Absent a copula this is not
hendiadys.
______________

> >http://www.fbfi.org/WebMan/Article.asp?ID=3809&Count=false
> >God in a Manger - Adam Blumer
> >Many writers and scholars alike mistakenly treat the word wonderful 
> as an 
> >adjective as in "Wonderful Counsellor" (with the comma deleted). 
> Actually, 
> >in the original Hebrew, the word wonderful of Isaiah 9:6 stands 
> alone as a 
> >noun...
> 
> Ok my problem here is a simple one.  If the guy doesn't know that 
> the verse 
> is actually 9:5, ......
________________

Yes, I know.  This is a TERRIBLE error!  He references the English
versification rather than the Hebrew!  He should be drawn and quartered. 
Seriously now, this may be an incorrect practice, but if you know that
the systems differ then I would say it is NBD (no big deal).  Do try to
not be utterly pedantic.

george
gfsomsel
___________