Biblical Hebrew Forum

["George F. Somsel" <gfsomsel AT juno.com>]

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:39:29 -0400 "George F. Somsel" <gfsomsel AT juno.com>
writes:
> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:01:29 +0900 moon AT mail.sogang.ac.kr writes:
> > > 
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > Boyarin, in his book "A Radical Jew", translated Psalms 143:2a 
> as 
> > follows (p.119):
> > > 
> > >  Do not reproach your servant with statue, [for no living being 
> 
> > will be justified 
> > >                                              before you]
> > > 
> > > The usual translation is: do not enter into judgement with your 
> 
> > servant.
> > > 
> > > The original is:
> > > 
> > >   AL-TABOAH BEMISFAT ETH-YABDEQA.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > BDB says about ETH:
> > > 
> > >  
> > > ETH marks an accusative in other relations than that of
> > > direct object to a verb: (a) with verbs of motion (very rare)
> > > denoting the goal. 
> > > 
> > > So AL-TABOAH BEMISFAT ETH-YABDEQA can be taken to mean:
> > > 
> > >   Do not come unto your servant with statue.
> > > 
> > > So, Boyarin's rendering seems possible. On the other hand, verb 
> 
> > BOH seems to 
> > > go with prep. BE more  naturally. BDB says about BE:
> > > 
> > >  with verbs of motion, when the movement to a place results in 
> > rest in it,
> > >  INTO: after BAH, NATAN, SHALAQ.
> > > 
> > > Though  MISHFAT is not a place, but a process, I think entering 
> 
> > into a process
> > makes sense as much as entering into  a place. So, the traditional 
> 
> > translation 
> > clearly makes sense. 
> > 
> > I am interested in Boyarin suggested his translation because of 
> the 
> > way
> > 143:2b is quoted in Rom 3:20a:
> >  
> >  No flesh will be justified from works of Torah before him.   
> > 
> > Paul adds "from works of Torah" to the original. But if we take 
> > Psalms 143:2a
> > as Boyarin suggests, this addition makes sense. In the context, 
> > Psalms 143:2b
> > can be taken to mean "no living being will be justified before you 
> 
> > [
> > JUDGED WITH STATUE]". From this, it seems natural for Paul to 
> write
> > " No flesh will be justified from works of Torah before him."
> > 
> > Any comments?
> >  
> >  
> > > Moon Jung
> > > Sogang Univ, Seoul, Korea 
> __________________
> 
> First, your tranliteration is very misleading.  Here is the text.
> 
> W:)aL_T.fBoW B:Mi$:P.f+ )eT_(aB:D.eKf C.iY Lo)_YiCD.aQ L:PfNeYKf 
> KfL_XfY
> 
> Apparently he is deriving "statue" from Mi$P.f+ which makes no sense 
> to
> me.  Mi$P.f+ signifies "judgment", "custom", "case [legal]" or even 
> the
> "pouch of judgment" which contained the Urim and Thumim.  Moreover, 
> what
> in the world would "Do not reproach your servant with statue" mean?  
> One
> of the first duties of a translator is to make the text 
> comprehensible --
> assuming that the text made sense in the first place.  I would say 
> that
> he fails miserably here.
> 
> george
> gfsomsel
> _______________________________________________

To which Moon replied,

> Such a blunder. Yes, it should have been "statute".
> So sorry for that.
_____________

Moon,

Don't be concerned since we've clarified the matter.  Just don't ask me
to communicate in Korean (at least until I've had a chance to study it). 
I'm sure whatever I wrote would be total nonsense.

This makes better sense.  We are at least in the right domain.  I still,
however, have reservations regarding his translation.  Mi$Pf+ is
generally used for cases and decisions, not statutes.  The statutes on
which judgments rest are generally MiCWfH or XoQ.

george
gfsomsel
>From segall AT umich.edu  Tue Aug 24 10:43:07 2004
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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:43:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen Segall <segall AT umich.edu>
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To: Karl Randolph <kwrandolph AT email.com>
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Subject: [b-hebrew] Timing of Thera volcano
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All of the archeological evidence about the date of this volcano is
suspect. A conclusive way to date the Thera volcano may be through study
of ice cores from Greenland, Antarctica or other places that can date
volcanic events by comparison with more recent and more precisely known
events that are recorded in the ice cores. Does anyone know of such
studies and do you have references to them?

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Karl Randolph wrote:

> Marianne:
>
> If as you claim below, Exodus mentions phenomena consistant with the Theran 
> eruption, and those phenomena were also connected timewise with Ahmoses' 
> attack on the Hyksos' strongholds, you have just made my point that the 
> Exodus under Moses occured under the last or next to last Hyksos pharaoh 
> (next to last, if the pharaoh of the Exodus was killed as mentioned in 
> Exodus, and his successor ruled for only a short period before being 
> expelled).
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: MarianneLuban AT aol.com
>
> > In a message dated 8/21/2004 10:02:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > Banyai AT t-online.de writes:
> >
> >
> > > I suppose you miss the point Marianne. You use the stratum where the 
> > > Theran
> > > pumice was found as a marker for the date as the eruption took place
> >
> > No.  I am no vulcanologist.  I do not place the eruption of Thera at all.
> > Don't confuse me with Manfred Bietak.  I have used the eruption as a 
> > "marker"
> > for nothing.  The only thing I did in my book was discuss the theories of 
> > others
> > as to whether this "tempest" described at Karnak by Ahmose (and also 
> > hinted
> > at by the pRhind when the onslaught of the Hyksos strongholds took place) 
> > can
> > have had anything to do with the final eruption of Thera in 
> > antiquity--and the
> > phenomena described in the BOE.  Some say "yes"--others "no".  It has 
> > become
> > an ongoing debate in the journals.  I tend to side with the "yes"
> > contingent--because I have faith that the Torah would not describe things 
> > that seem so
> > connected with a natural disaster for no reason at all.  Hail, raining 
> > soot and
> > darkness for three days don't happen every day in Egypt.
> --
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