Biblical Hebrew Forum

["UUC" <unikom AT paco.net>]

Dear Liz,

Don't impute me defending anything Christian. Doesn't work.

I don't reject your Persian court hypothesis out of hand, but I have a
problem with mishpat and with the verses,

10. And God, desiring his dejection, made him ill;

if his soul had brought a guilt offering,

he would have seen [his] descendants,

prolonged days,

and the will of God would have succeeded through his efforts.

11. In result of the work of his soul,

he would have started seeing,

would have been filled by his knowledge,

my slave would have justified the righteous before multitude,

and their sinful digressions he would have withstood.


>I can
> assure you there were no Jewish courts even in
> Judah during the Persian period.
hmmm, how could anyone know this?
Judges were required for the returning population, some of them were surely
available to handle the crrent disputes. But this is speculation, anyway.


Best regards,

Vadim

> Dear Vadim,
> It is only the need to see Jesus here that
>  a Jewish court is inferred.
>
> The text takes place in Babylon under Persian rule. I assure
> you there were no Jewish courts. In fact, I can
> assure you there were no Jewish courts even in
> Judah during the Persian period. I discuss this
> extensively in my article
>
> You Shall Appoint Judges:  "Ezra's Mission and the Rescript of
Artaxerxes,"
> in J. W. Watts, Persia and Torah: The Theory of Imperial Authorization of
> the Pentateuch, SBL Symposium Series (Atlanta: Society of Biblical
> Literature, 2001): 63-89.
>
> and in my book
>
> The Priest and the Great King: Temple-Palace Relations in the Persian
> Empire, BJSUCSD 10 (Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns, 2004).
>
> Liz Fried
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of UUC
> > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:52 AM
> > To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 53: in his death?
> >
> > Actually, pulling the beard is encountered even in Talmud as
> > a sanction.
> >
> > In 53, the man was evidently executed by Jews; Isaiah, in my
> > opinion, would hardly call heathen court mishpat.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Vadim
> >
> >
> > > Dear Jack, Harold, Peter, Vadim, etc.
> > > These events are to be treated as descriptive of events that took
> > > place in the Persian period, the time of Second Isaiah. Any other
> > > interpretation violates all common sense imo. Prophets deal
> > with the
> > > events and concerns of their own times. They do not deal
> > with events
> > > happening 700 or 500 years in the future.
> > >
> > > I also don't agree that the protagonist in Isaiah 53 was
> > executed by
> > > his own people. If he was executed (and I say if) it was by the
> > > Persians in Persia.
> > >
> > > This poem is a continuation of Isaiah 50, and there the speaker is
> > > definitely jailed by Persians. Pulling out the hairs of the
> > head and
> > > beard, as well as flogging, are Persian sanctions, not Jewish.
> > > Read Helzer, M. "The Flogging and Plucking of Beards in the
> > Achaemenid
> > > Empire and the Chronology of Nehemiah," AMI 28
> > (1995-96):305-7. This
> > > article definitely shows the Persian background to Isaiah 50. The
> > > speaker is jailed for disobedience to Persian authority for some
> > > reason. The kindlers of fire (50:11) may be Jews who rush after the
> > > customs of the Zoroastrians.
> > >
> > > I see Isaiah 53 as refering in the third person to the first person
> > > speaker of Isaiah 50.
> > > Liz Fried
> > >
> > > Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph. D.
> > > Visiting Scholar
> > > Department of Near Eastern Studies
> > > University of Michigan
> > > 2068 Frieze Bldg.
> > > 105 S. State St.
> > > Ann Arbor, Michigan  48109-1285
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of UUC
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 3:26 AM
> > > > To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 53: in his death?
> > > >
> > > > Dear Jack,
> > > >
> > > > You're right that the rule was hardly enforced in the tumultuous
> > > > first century, especially with illegal execution by foreigners.
> > > > However, if you treat chapter 53 as prophecy, the man was
> > executed
> > > > by his own people - thus mishpat, legal proceeding - not by
> > > > foreigners.
> > > > Besides, I guess, the observance was more rigorous in
> > Isaiah's time.
> > > > This is only a guess.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Vadim Cherny
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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>
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