Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Peter Kirk" <peterkirk AT ozemail.com.au>]

Bryan, from the perspective of a translator as well as a reader of
standard translations, I see a serious danger in your approach. If your
students get too used to stretching English to its limits in answering
your exercises, if and when they get on to serious translation (and
don't put yourself down, Bryan, the next generation of translators of
standard English Bibles may cut their teeth on your course) they will
find it hard to distinguish stretched English from standard English, and
to switch back to the latter. If this sounds fanciful, look at some of
the wildly stretched supposedly English syntax in some modern Bible
translations. Wayne Leman, who moderates the b-trans list, has collected
many examples (mostly New Testament); see
http://biblepacesetter.org/bibletranslation/. For example, there are
verbs which are always transitive in English, except for some reason in
the Bible; one example, common in translations of the Hebrew Bible, is
"send", as in "Send and bring him" (1 Sam 16:11 NRSV). In English this
is a grammatical error! We really shouldn't teach students that this is
an acceptable English rendering.

Also, I suspect that students want to learn Hebrew because they don't
trust the standard translations and think they can do better. I was
surprised that you wrote the opposite.

Peter Kirk
peter.r.kirk AT ntlworld.com
http://web.onetel.net.uk/~peterkirk/
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
> bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of B. M. Rocine
> Sent: 27 January 2003 14:39
> To: b-hebrew
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Re: Grammar Texts Question
> 
> Hi Rodney.  It's been awhile, eh?  Thanks for your kind comments.
> 
> I would like to continue on one point you
> have brought up.  It has significance for teaching/learning BH beyond
> choosing a
> first year grammar.  You wrote:
> 
> >
> >  3) Rocine's approach is to provide the "sense" of the Hebrew and
not
> > smooth translations into English.  I actually think that is a
strength,
> > but some students get a little frustrated and find it helpful to be
> > prompted to reflect on how to render the sense in to smooth English
> > idiom.  They learn about the problems of translating and the need
for
> > commentary.
> 
> I think translation is over-emphasized in second language learning to
the
> detriment of comprehension and appreciation of the language. For
instance,
> many of my students, because of their previous experiences in secpond
> language acquisition,  begin with the assumption that success is
producing,
> from a given passage in BH, an English version that matches their
favorite
> English tranlsation.  A student's favorite "bookstore" translation
becomes
> the answer key.  Until they get used to a different way, the question
is
> usually whether the translation is *correct*.  I tell my students that
if
> that's what they want out of the course, they would be better off
buying
> more different English translations and good Bible study software
rather
> than expend the great effort required to learn Hebrew.
> 
> I guess students' obsession with translating is also because we think
of
> the
> translations we buy off the shelf as authoritive, as if we can't do
any
> better.  Given their audiences and purposes, I would agree that we
would
> be
> hard-pressed to produce better translations than NIV, JPS, Fox's, etc.
> But
> it is very unlikely that any of my students will produce yet another
> translation on the bookstore shelf, so why make that the goal?  Is
that
> type
> of smooth translation really the ultimate, let alone most practical
goal?
> 
> To me, translation actrivities are discussion exercises in dead
language
> acquisition.  In my course, we allow stretching English to its limits
and
> discuss whether we have produced a better or worse equivalence for the
> Hebrew in terms of discourse.  Discourse analysis is the study of the
> linguistic signs a writer/speaker uses to guide his reader/listener
> through
> a text. I think we would rather, while learning BH, appreciate and
discuss
> these signs than produce yet another smooth-sounding translation
suitable
> for the general public.  We can always do the bookstore version later
if
> we
> care to.
> 
> Shalom,
> Bryan
> 
> 
> B. M. Rocine
> Living Word Church
> 6101 Court St. Rd.
> Syracuse, NY 13206
> 
> ph: 315.437.6744
> fx: 315.437.6766
>