Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Banyai Michael" <banyai AT t-online.de>]

I personaly find the discussion up to a point artificial, since no 
primary sources could ever substantiate the southern Ur hypothesis. We may 
have
an early or late tradition of a southern Ur, but nothing in Mesopotamia 
itself,
which could help substantiate this identification.

Now Walter offered us a number of sources which should support his view of 
a
later northern Ur identification. However these examples should not only 
be
grouped somehow to the north (I don´t know how Damascus should fall in 
this
class?), but also relate to the whole patriarch story (which of course 
Damascus
doesn´t).

> "Eusebius quotes the following from Eupolemus concerning Abraham-
> "He saith, moreover, that in the tenth generation in a city of Babylonia,
> called Carmarina (which, by some, is called the city of Urie, and which
> signifyeth a city of the Chaldeans), there lived, the 13th in descent, (a
> man called) Abraham, a man of a noble race, and superior to all others in
> wisdom." (p.146,  Pinches)

Excuse me my ignorance, since I can not identify geographically this 
Kar-Marina.

> "Nicolas of Damascus, apparently wishing to glorify his own city, states
> that Abram was king of Damascus, and went there, with an army, from that
> part of the country,which is situated above Babylon of the Chaldeans,
> afterwards transferring his dwelling to the land which was at that time
> called Canaan, but is now called Judea. Justin also states that Abraham
> lived at Damascus, from which city he traces the origin of the Jews."
> (p.147, Pinches)

> "There have been many discussions as to the position of Ur of the Chaldees.
> Some, on account of the distance from Canaan, apparently, have contended
> that Ur of the Chaldees is the same site known for many hundreds of years as
> Urfa, in Mesopotamia...Urfa or Orfa, called by the Greeks Edessa, was known
> as Orrha at the time of Isidore of Charax (date about 150 BC). Pocock, in
> his Description of the East, states that it is the universal opinion of the
> Jews that Orfa or Edessa was the ancient Ur of the Chaldees, and this is
> supported by local tradition, the chief place of worship there being called
> the mosque of Abraham, and the pond in which the sacred fish are kept being
> called Bahr Ibrahim el-Halil, 'the Lake of Abraham the Beloved." (p.193,
> Pinches)

This is a very late example. It may have no relationship with the period as 
the
HB was written. It is a late islamic tradition, worthless for our purpose, 
as
are the relevations of the book Mormon or else late literature.

> As noted in a previous post to this list, the Book of Judith (5:5-9),
> believed by some scholars to date from the late 2nd century BCE, identifies
> Israel's ancestors as inhabitants of Chaldea. Eupolemus who flourished ca.
> 150 BC, (the 2nd century BCE), also understands Abraham is from
> Babylonia/Chaldea. Nicholas of Damascus (late 1st century BCE, a
> contemporary of Herod the Great) identified Damascus as Abraham's city. Now
> Urfa is in Syria like Damascus, so perhaps the notion that "Ur is in Syria"
> arose in the 1st century BCE, or sometime thereafter ?

I beleave last supposition goes too far. As you showed, all late 
identifications
of Ur are southern, (except a stray citation in Damascus, which is beyond
qualification). So the northern variant, unless all evidence is uncomplete 
and
misleading, is the earlier.

BTW Urkish was never, so far I know, in scholarly discussion, even if it 
would
offer within the northern group the best fit.


Joe Bakers proposition to see in Herodots story about the Phoenician 
migration from the Erithrean sea (this is the Red sea too!) a story about 
the Hebrews, falls under Occams rasor. It fails to explain how, otherwise 
Herodot totaly ignores the Hebrew, why he should call them Phoenicians and 
so on.
The Senacheribos story is overtly in all late antique sources an Egyptian 
tradition, not a hebrew one.


Best regards, 

Banyai Michael