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  • From: peter_kirk AT sil.org
  • To: <b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
  • Subject: Re[2]: historiography (Ken, again)
  • Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 23:50:34 -0500


There are of course also statues of King David, including a
particularly famous one by Michelangelo. You've seen it in Florence,
surely, Ian? Proof that David existed?

As someone pointed out, Cicero is probably not a good example. But
please, Ian, what is the evidence for the existence of Josephus? This
question was put before, but you ducked it. Perhaps you're not sure
which way to jump on this one, not sure whether others are going to
use his reliability or his unreliability against you. Of course the
MSS are all many centuries later. OK, the author of the works
attributed to Josephus knew something about the siege of Masada (but
seems to go against archaeology elsewhere), but then the author of 2
Kings knew quite a lot (otherwise attested from inscriptions, the
Babylonian Chronicle, the Lachich letters, the Mesha inscription etc)
about the relationship between Israel and its neighbours from the time
of Ahab onwards. In either case, if the author wrote many centuries
after the event, you have to find a convincing way in which he can
have had at least some accurate information about the ancient past.

As for the last sentence of your posting, I am becoming tempted to
think that I can judge the value of your postings, Ian, by their
length, in inverse proportion. This one I have read, but don't tempt
me to judge them without reading them!

Peter Kirk


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: historiography (Ken, again)
Author: <mc2499 AT mclink.it> at Internet
Date: 01/01/2000 16:22


At 01.25 01/01/00 -0800, kdlitwak wrote:
>Ian Hutchesson wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, Ken, your analogy is inappropriate. Simply not analogous,
>> unless you want to discount
>
>There are statues of Darth Vader. What does that prove?

It proves that you have little idea about physical remains and attestations
from the past regarding the existence of people. It would seem that you are
presenting a know-nothing approach about the past and you simply can't say
anything at all. You should terminate the conversation you are having,
because
you have put yourself into an almost berkeyian position. Such gymnastics will
only help you avoid anything that uses evidence from the past.

>More close to the target
>time, there is a status of Diana of Ephesus (I think) with about twenty
breasts. Does
>that prove such a being existed? I don't think so.

Again examine the statues of Cicero before saying such stuff. You have been
giving examples that show total lack of knowledge about things you should
know of before you use them.

>> 1) the various statues of Cicero (et al.),
>> 2) Cicero's property (ie we have proof of the writer in #1 & #2),
>
>No, we may have property that may have belonged to someone named Cicero,
or "Cicero"

Marcus Tullius Cicero to be precise. How many of them can you find in
history, Ken. Please try and provide even one attestation of anyone else
with that precise name, living where he is supposed to have lived.

<snip>

>No one has shown why there's a real relationship.

No-one has shown a real relationship say between Josephus's knowledge of
the siege of Masada and what really happened? No-one has shown the
destruction of Megiddo from the time that the Egyptians reported they
besieged it?

<snip>

..This would be like saying that two pieces of literature of the same
length had the same literary value -- without, of course, having read the
texts.


Cheers,


Ian






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