Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Ron Rhoades <rrhoades AT jps.net>]

Greetings Peter,

>You wrote: What do you make of Daniel chapter 12, especially verses 2 >and 
>13? 

I see nothing that contradicts the idea that those asleep in death are
unconscious, having returned to dust. I only see here a resurrection of
the dead *person*, not a body that has somehow continued to exist in
some literal holding tank.

  >I have trouble with your interpretation of 1 Samuel 28...The text
>clearly says that the speaker in verses 15-19  was Samuel; we also read 
>>that "the woman saw Samuel" (v.12), "Saul  knew that it was Samuel" >(v.14) 
>and "the words of Samuel" (v.20). It  is clear that the author of >the text, 
>as well as Samuel and the  medium, believed that Samuel really >appeared, 
>and in bodily form  (v.14).

I had a friend who fell off a three story building and had a near death
experience. He experienced an angel catching him, talking to him,
telling he would live etc. etc. (Don't ask me why this angel couldn't
have kept him from breaking every bone in his body. ;|) When I tell this
story I say "He saw"..."The angel said"...and "it came true." You could
assume that I believe it really was an angel, but there is nothing that
demands that conclusion. If you take what I have said at other times,
you would realize I was just recounting the story from his viewpoint. I
view 1 Sam. 28 as doing the same thing.

Samuel, the soul, had died. I can only conclude that *death* here is the
same as *death* for Adam and all humans: a return to dust, with no
consciousness or "spirit entity" remaining.
(Gen.3:19, Ec.9:5,10) And so 1 Sam. must be interpreted in agreement.

  >(But what does the ):ELOHIYM in v.13 mean? NIV "spirit"  suggests
>something like a ghost - surely it cannot mean that!) 

NIV does read "spirit" here. Amazing. Is there any justification for
this?

  >It is also worth noting that Samuel's words ended with a specific
>prophecy which was fulfilled, which is hardly compatible with the idea >that 
>this was a demonic manifestation.

The prophecy of my friend's angel also came true--he lived. I don't see
how a true outcome excludes it from being demon inspired. The Hebrew and
Greek Scriptures repeatedly state that demons are powerful and can see
and pass things on that no human could.

Deut.13:1-3 "In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your
midst and does give you a sign or a portent, and the sign or the portent
*does come true* of which he spoke to you...you must not listen to the
words of that prophet or to the dreamer of that dream."

The clairvoyant at Acts 16:16-19 provided a good income to her masters
and so must have been somewhat successful in her art. (Cf. Mat.7:21-23,
1Jn 4:1)

  >I agree that the best understanding of the Hebrew belief is that the
>dead did in general simply die and that the "Sheol" to which they went >was 
>simply a collective term for graves. The spirit departing from a >person 
>simply means that they stop breathing, which means that they are dead, and 
>they go to Sheol simply by being buried.

I also agree that this is the "best understanding," so why not stick
with it? Especially since historically it seems to be the way the
original hearers took it.

  >But I see in the medium of Endor incident a belief that the grave was
>more than a  place of destruction, rather a place of continued existence 
>>perhaps in  a state like sleep, from which God could bring back the dead 
>>by specific intervention. God did this in at Endor;

I don't see this as the "best understanding," since it causes an
unnecessary contradiction in the Hebrew Bible. But it can easily be seen
as just a storyline from the perspective of those involved, not
necessarily the view of the writer.

Interesting is the parallel between Sheol the grave and the "pit of
destruction" common in the HB. Isa. 38:9,10, 17-18, Pro. 15:11; 27:20,
Ps. 88:11 etc.

When alive Samuel would certainly have had nothing to do with a spirit
medium, and Samuel refused to talk to Saul, so why would he after death?
God would give no such cooperation to a medium. This would make him
break his own laws and thus be a hypocrite.

 >in 1 Kings 17 that the breath [N:$FMFH] had departed from a boy (v.17)
>and  then YHWH returned to him his life [NEPE$] (v.22) - though this boy > 
>had not been buried, had not gone to Sheol. 

Since Sheol is a state, and not a literal place you go, I don't think
you have to be buried to go there.

The word nephesh is also used of the "life" experienced by a creature,
human or animal (Gen.2:7, 12:5, Lev. 2:1, Num. 5:6, Ps. 19:7). This is
similar to when Rachel was giving birth to Benjamin, her NEPHESH went
out from her and she died. (Ge 35:16-19) She ceased to be a living
creature.

On the one hand, I can absolutely state that when you go to the grave
you "cease to exist," "become dust" and you "don't know anything." At
the same time I can use terms like "life has left the body", you're
"resting in the grave," "I hear Gran-pa talking to me from the grave,"
"He's turning over in his grave", "He longs to be released from his
grave".

Now, someone ignorant of English idioms may be confused and interpret my
words as meaning I believe in some type of existence after death. Or
someone can ignore context, separate the various statements according to
time, and say I held contradictory beliefs. Only by referencing all that
I have previously said could you absolutely determine what I believe
correctly.

But if taken together they do not have to contradict each other. The
writer should be given the benefit of the doubt that he doesn't
contradict himself. I apply this principle to the Bible as a whole.

>Psalm 104:29-30 is also interesting...This understanding later developed 
>>into the belief  that God  actually will bring back all of the dead, 
>>reflected in Daniel 12 and in later Judaism and Christianity.

Dan. 12, Ps. 104 and the resurrection accounts do strengthen the belief
that Jehovah can and will resurrect *people* that have died.

Ron Rhoades