Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Ron Rhoades <rrhoades AT jps.net>]

George Athas wrote:
> 
> (1) I agree that Sheol and the grave are one and the same. However,
> (2) Sheol does seem to be a place (not "hell") where the departed go. >In 
> the episode of Samuel's spirit being raised for Saul at Eyn-Dor, it 
> >appears that the spirit (if we can separate it from the soul in this 
> >case) is in a particular place, namely a place which is viewed as being 
> >"down". I assume this to mean that Sheol is more than just the "grave" - 
> >it is a place where people do exist, but they exist in a state of 
> >unconsciousness and virtual nothingness. Note Samuel's reponse to
> having been "disturbed" and his statement that Saul and his sons would, 
> >the next day, be where Samuel was.


Greetings George,

I not sure what you mean when you said <"Sheol does seem to be a place
(not "hell") where the departed go."> 

If you mean it's not a place of torment, I agree. But Sheol is the word
translated Hell. "Hell" and "Sheol" denote the same "place," there is no
other place where the dead go according to the HB, that I know of. I
would say it is presented as a place of *total* nothingness, not
"virtual nothingness."

I also don't quite get what you mean when you wrote: <"I agree that
Sheol and the grave are one and the same."> But then you wrote: <"I
assume this to mean that Sheol is more than just the 'grave'"> ??

I do see the grave as being the same as Sheol. It is the place where the
person, now a "dead soul," returns to dust and where there is no
consciousness. According to Biblical usage, the grave, Sheol, and a hole
in the ground (pit) are the same place. "And you have delivered my soul
and kept it from the pit of destruction. For it is not Sheol that can
laud you; death itself cannot praise you. Those going down into the pit
cannot look hopefully to your trueness."--Isa. 38:17-18 (Cf. Ps.28:1;
30:3)

I feel the examples I previously cited show that in the Hebrew Bible a
"soul" is a "living being", animal or human. The soul dies and goes to
the grave (Sheol/pit/dust). What makes a soul (a living being) is the
spirit or *life force* from God animating a body. 

An individual's "spirit" is never spoken of as literally existing in
some "limbo" state separate from the person. The spirit is never said to
go to Sheol or linger in any other place. It goes "up" to God in the
sense that the persons life prospect is in Gods hands. And it has no
personal consciousness (Ps.146:4). No one has an individual spirit since
it is the same *spirit* (force) animating humans and animals. (Eccl.
3:19-20; Gen.7:22)

Thus, in accord with the Hebrew Bible's teaching, the "spirit medium"
could not actually call up "Saul's spirit" from some literal "abode."
The medium's own belief was obviously different, and the account
presents what she said. But this belief was viewed as false by the HB
and all faithful believers.

Samuel, the soul, had died. I can only conclude that *death* here is the
same as *death* for Adam and all humans: a return to dust, with no
consciousness or "spirit entity" remaining. (Gen.3:19, Ec.9:5,10) 

Keil and Delitzsch have some very interesting comments concerning early
Christian writers. These with few exceptions believed that there "was
not a real appearance of Samuel, but only an imaginary one," "merely a
spectre of the devil," "that the senses of the woman herself were so
deceived, that she thought she saw Samuel, whereas it really was not
he."

The reasons they felt it could not be Samuel's "spirit" hinge on the
facts that (1.) when alive Samuel would not talk to Saul. (2.) Samuel
would certainly have had nothing to do with a spirit medium, and  (3.)
God would give no such cooperation to a medium.

In addition to these reasons, my view is in line with what the Bible
states concerning those who have died. They are simply nonexistent,
dust, and will remain that way until God gives them back the life-force
in the future resurrection.

Nice talking to you again!

Ron Rhoades
Nevada City, CA