Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Peter_Kirk AT SIL.ORG]

Let me clarify this. As I understand it, according to the widely 
accepted discourse analysis understanding, in a historical narrative 
(carried on mainly by a sequence of wayyiqtols) the form X + qatal (X 
may be a noun, but also e.g. LO' as in Jdg 13:2) indicates a 
background event or one which happened before the main time line 
event, but resulting in a state of affairs which is relevant to the 
time line. From one viewpoint, this is "stative". From another 
viewpoint, this is "perfect" according to the definition "a present 
state  resulting from a past action" (Wenham, "NT Greek", p.139). In 
English translation, as the time line is translated with a simple 
past, the background is often translated with a pluperfect, or with 
"was" and a stative expression. In this sense I see "stative" and 
"pluperfect" as almost equivalent.

This point is perhaps illustrated better with stative verbs like 
"stand", "sit". In Azerbaijani these are expressed only with a perfect 
participle "having stood up", "having sat down" and a copula. In NT 
Greek these are expressed by perfect forms HESTEKA, KATHEMAI; and even 
the stative "I know" is a perfect form: OIDA = "I have seen/come to 
know". The Hebrew idiom is not so clear to me, but it might be 
instructive to correlate "stative" and "fientive" uses of (MD and Y$B 
with qatal, yiqtol, participles etc.

There is one possible difference which could help to decide whether 
qatal is more "stative" or more "pluperfect"; that is the question of 
whether the described state has come into existence or has existed in 
eternity past. Since love is eternal only in the Godhead, "Solomon was 
in love" is equivalent to "Solomon had started to love", and the 
difference from "Solomon had fallen in love" is at most a rather 
subtle one (and it surely overloads the verb here to insist that it 
means one rather than the other). Can anyone find examples of X + 
qatal (where the qatal cannot be a participle) for a truly eternal 
state - or even a very ancient one? If this is not found, or rare, it 
would back up my "pluperfect" idea; if it is common, then X + qatal is 
perhaps more "stative".

Peter Kirk


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Qatal, 1 Kings 11:1
Author:  dwashbur AT nyx.net at internet
Date:    02/02/1999 22:13


Peter wrote:
> If we follow the regular understanding of N + qatal in 1 Kings 11:1, 
> the point is not that Solomon "had a thing for" foreign women or
> "habitually fell in love with them". I guess that would require a 
> participle. Here, rather, the sense is pluperfect: at some time
> previous to the events described in the previous passage, Solomon "had 
> fallen in love with" many foreign women and so was, at the narrative
> time, in a state of love regarding them - cf an English or Greek 
> perfect or pluperfect tense.

I'm inclined to think this is putting more on the verb form than it can 
bear.  Per Bryan's approach, it looks more to me as though it's
saying "Solomon was in love with many foreign women" in a stative 
sense, i.e. it described the state of his heart in a sort of "this is 
how he was" manner.

Indeed, they had become his wives and
> concubines. I understand Bryan's conception of the qatal as stative as 
> relating in that way to its pluperfect "flashback" sense - is that
> right, Bryan? Maybe the older grammarians were not as wrong as we 
> sometimes think in calling the qatal form "perfect".

I'm not convinced that Bryan's approach includes the pluperfect 
idea.  This need not be part of the stative concept.  To say 
something like "he was old" or "he was tall" or "he was an 
Edomite" need not include the pluperfect notions "he became old 
and was now in a state of being old" etc.

<snip>


Dave Washburn
http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
A Bible that's falling apart means a life that isn't.

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