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  • From: Tyng-Ruey Chuang <trc AT iis.sinica.edu.tw>
  • To: commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [Commons-research] Commons-research Digest, Vol 2, Issue 14
  • Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:47:59 +0800

Right, Prodromos. You are saying it is irrelevant for the public licenses
that are used,
while I want to say is that it is relevant whether to make it publicly
available or not.
I was too quick in reading your post. It was late, and I was tired. :-)

best,
Tyng-Ruey


Prodromos Tsiavos wrote:
Giorgo, we should be thanking you for all the effort you are putting into this :)
I am fine with your suggestion. Let's get this CfP out at last!
Only, after reading Tyng-Ruey's post I think we should clarify what we mean by opt-out:
(a) not to use the CC BY licence as you suggest and/or
(b) not to make some material (e.g. slides) available at all
Btw, I don't disagree with you Tyng-Ruey :) I am saying exactly the same thing: either you publish on the site (that's what I meant by making publicly available) and bear the risk of infringement irrespective of the licensing scheme or you don't publish at all.
Thanks again!
pRo

----- Original Message -----
*From:* Giorgos Cheliotis <mailto:giorgos AT smu.edu.sg>
*To:* commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
<mailto:commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org>
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:37 PM
*Subject:* RE: [Commons-research] Commons-research Digest, Vol 2,
Issue 14

Prodrome thanks for the long post
My apologies for having increased the traffic to the list
significantly lately, I'm trying to bring everything together for
the call to finally come out.
I'm sorry if the term "partisan" may sound inappropriate to some,
though I do feel that it is fitting: CC BY is the most liberal of
all CC licenses and promoting this license in particular, as opposed
to having options, is signifying a particular stance that is
ideologically motivated. I may agree with most of the ideology
behind it, but that is another matter.
Prodromos is right to state that for presentation in places which
publish book proceedings you often need to assign the rights to the
conference. But we are not an IEEE conference on X or similar, we do
not publish book proceedings, and this is a workshop which we are
doing for the first time and which aims at the presentation of work
in progress. Such workshops do not have any policies of that manner
that I am aware of, so let's please not add more restrictions and
layers upon layers of policies in the name of "freedom" (the CFP is
getting longer and longer by the way :). Such workshops sometimes
ask that the authors allow them to publish submissions online,
without any general and public assignment of rights besides the
right to publish the proceedings in a specific manner.
So this is what I meant by opt-out: authors can opt out of the CC-BY
license by explicitly requesting for this (maybe no one will), but
cannot opt out from what is stated in the CFP i.e. that they grant
the organizers the right to publish the proceedings in an open
format online.
I think this should be clear enough. If I'm mistaken please do
correct me. It's 1:30AM local time after all and I make
mistakes :) Every objection so far on this list has helped me and
the rest of the team come up with a better plan.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* commons-research-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of
Prodromos Tsiavos
*Sent:* Wed 3/26/2008 12:51 AM
*To:* commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
*Subject:* Re: [Commons-research] Commons-research Digest, Vol 2,
Issue 14

Apologies for the long post :)
I appreciate that the quality of the submitted papers rather than
the licensing issue is the key issue in relation to the workshop. I
also appreciate the ideological neutrality of Giorgos' point
suggesting a compromise solution, i.e. having CCBY as the default
with an opt-out option, and I would not mind sticking to such a
solution.
However, I am slightly annoyed that an open licensing policy is
coined as "partisan". The standard policy and norm in most
scientific or academic conferences is to assign (not even license!!)
the rights to the conference so that publication is
possible. So, were we a "non-partisan" research group, we would ask
all participants to assign or exclusively license all their rights
to the iSummit. Then we could license the content under whichever
licence we would deem as appropriate...So much for not being partisan...
The argument regarding presentations making use of non-cleared
content is actually irrelevant to the kind of licensing regime you
are going to choose once (a) you decide to make the content of the
presentation public and (b) provided you do not wish to stay in the
gray zone of "I infringe copyright but who's going to find out":
- if it falls under fair use, it does not matter which licence you
are going to use for the dissemination of the presentation
- if it does not fall under fair use or exceptions, then you are
infringing copyright, again, irrespectively of the licensing scheme
you are going to use.
I have written pro-FLOSS/CC papers and still had to assign
copyrights to the publishing house. The quality of the journal/
conference rather than the licensing scheme played the key role in
my decision to publish. In the same way that closed licensing
arrangements do not affect those that wish to publish, open
licensing arrangements should not play a role either. If we frame
the discussion otherwise we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
Having said all that, I would still support Giorgos' point and
suggest a CC_BY policy with an opt-out option only to check the kind
of licensing arrangements we are going to end up with.
Which brings me to a very practical point: what exactly should the
opt-out option be?
I mean, practically we will need at least a licence to publish the
material on the iSummit site and also a licence to publish the
material on any other medium. Effectively, the opt-out option would
mean:
(a) not to publish the material at all (which I would assume is
something we don't want) or
(b) to license the material to iSummit/ iCommons (which could then
license the material under which licensing scheme? CC_BY perhaps? :)).
Any suggestions?
best,
pRo

----- Original Message -----
*From:* Giorgos Cheliotis <mailto:giorgos AT smu.edu.sg>
*To:* commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
<mailto:commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org>
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 25, 2008 4:45 PM
*Subject:* RE: [Commons-research] Commons-research Digest, Vol
2, Issue 14

Good points indeed, maybe it is not much to ask for after all...
but I think it is clear from the responses thus far that we are
arguing for forcing a CC-BY on everyone who wants to have the
privilege of presenting at the isummit, implying that such
people MUST be friends of free culture, thus
automatically excluding people who are not from presenting at
the workshop. There goes my wish for a neutral point of view.
Let's now think about someone who is not a friend of CC or is
just not a friend of CC-BY (let's not forget that only a small
fraction of CC-licensed items are licensed under this license,
so it is actually not really popular). That person will most
likely be put off by the restriction that he/she has to use
CC-BY. What if for example the paper is about how CC BY sucks
and one should not use it? And, in any case, why should we
attempt to force this person to use CC BY? The whole spirit of
CC, as I understand it, is to provide options and educate people
on copyright issues, not to force a particular stance on
licensing. Now, icommons as an organization may have specific
policies in place which are designed for icommons and the
community. I respect that. The workshop however, is not purely
for internal consumption and we really want to reach out to
everyone who may disagree with what icommons stands for but can
express this disagreement in a serious and well-founded manner.
So, in conclusion, I propose that for this too we use an opt-out
approach as some of you have suggested (or hinted at). I believe
it should be spelled out explicitly in the CFP: It is CC-BY
with an opt-out option, and it is easy to opt-out if one
desires. This way we can make "free" the default, but not
prejudice anyone who may not be ready to be as "free" as others,
for practical reasons as Tyng-Ruey mentioned, or for ideological
reasons. (As a side-thought, it may be that a "partisan research
workshop" is not an entirely bad idea, but I'd rather stick with
a non-partisan one that tries to maintain a neutral point of view.)
I hope the above is acceptable as a compromise and is not seen
as a huge deviation from the main policy of the summit, as it
only differs in the inclusion of an opt-out option. By the way,
I use CC-BY for my presentations :) and I will often argue about
why an academic will benefit from doing the same, but I don't
want to force that stance upon everyone else.
Giorgos


------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* commons-research-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of
Prodromos Tsiavos
*Sent:* Tue 3/25/2008 7:03 PM
*To:* commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
*Subject:* Re: [Commons-research] Commons-research Digest, Vol
2, Issue 14

Dear All,

I would side with Alek on this one. Conditioning participation
upon a (non
exclusive) open licensing scheme is a really thin requirement
and it is in
accordance to the iSummit's character as an event that promotes
open/free
culture. If some speakers are not willing to subscribe to such a
policy we
could individually assess the case, but not amend the open
access policy
overall. Allowing closed licensing schemes is contrary to the
event's nature
and poses the risk of diluting its identity.

Thanks for your time :)

best,
pRo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alek Tarkowski" <alek AT creativecommons.pl>
To: <commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Commons-research] Commons-research Digest, Vol 2,
Issue 14


> Dear Giorgos,
>
> I am not sure that I agree that there is such a specificity
to the
> Research Workshop and that furthermore out of the need for
what you call
> respect as a venue for scientific discourse we need a special
licensing
> scheme.
>
> I think that there is a place in the iSummit at large, and
not just at
> the workshop, for those critical of our mission. At the same
time a free
> licensing requirement is in my opinion not some extravagant,
radical
> concept - and most importantly, it does not constrain the
expression of
> any critical arguments. Personally I consider it a quite
formal and
> quite minimal requirement (of course, I'm biased!). But maybe
it's good
> to face those weary of free licensing to weight the pros and
cons: if
> they are studying the commons, it should be worthwhile for
them to
> attend, even at the price of giving in to this licensing model.
>
> I think we should be careful with the extent to which we pull
out of the
> model accepted for the summit at large in the name of scientific
> specificity. I would like to think that Open Science is an
important
> part of the commons movement - which proves that the free
culture model
> can mix well with rules of scientific discourse / conduct.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alek
>
>
>
> Giorgos Cheliotis wrote:
>> Thanks James,
>>
>> the only part from the link you sent which is relevant and
actually
>> important for the research track is the licensing part which
requires
>> that all submissions be licensed under CC BY 3.0. I am
personally
>> undecided on this one. A common practice in academic circles
would be
>> that the author agrees in advance that the submission will
be published
>> in a specific manner (online open access in this case), but
without
>> additional requirements on the public licensing of the
content. I
>> understand that licensing under CC is fitting for the
isummit, but I'd
>> hate to miss out on potentially very good submissions from
folks who for
>> a variety of reasons don't want to use this license.
>>
>> You see, as I explained in my last email, the iSummit as a
whole may have
>> a mission of promoting CC/free culture, but the Research
Workshop needs
>> to maintain some degree of neutrality and be open to all
viewpoints, if
>> it is to be respected as a venue for scientific discourse.
So, yes to
>> open access, and the proceedings will be published online,
but is it wise
>> to try and force a CC-BY on everyone?
>>
>> I do not have the answer to this. I'm just wary of adding
>> "agenda-motivated" constraints to the research workshop,
even if I
>> personally support that agenda.
>>
>> Giorgos
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: commons-research-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf
of James
>> Cairns
>> Sent: Tue 3/25/2008 1:31 PM
>> To: commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [Commons-research] Commons-research Digest, Vol
2, Issue 14
>>
>>
>>
>> There are terms and conditions here
>>
<http://www.icommons.org/isummit08/submissions-terms-and-conditions/>
-
>> have a look at the licensing section at the bottom as this
is what may
>> have an effect on your discussion. I agree with what Giorgos
says below
>> about getting people outside of the commons to take part...
>>
>> Giorgos Cheliotis wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know whether the iSummit/iCommons have a policy on
this, but
>>> let's remember that the research track, like any research
>>> workshop/conference hopes to attract people beyond the
"usual suspects"
>>> of CC/icommons circles and some degree of flexibility may
be warranted.
>>>
>>> By that I mean that if we have a great submission by
someone who is
>>> highly critical of CC and let's say he/she is also very
skeptical when
>>> it comes to open access, but is making a strong case for
his/her
>>> position and that position is backed by some solid
research, then this
>>> may be a person we will want to have presenting at the
research track.
>>> So, I guess all I'm saying is let's try to reach out beyond the
>>> community and give people the flexibility to present their
research as
>>> they wish, within some commonly accepted bounds. Some kind
of speaker
>>> agreement may be a suitable tool for this purpose.
>>> <http://pml.wikidot.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: commons-research-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf
of Jessica
>>> Coates
>>> Sent: Tue 3/25/2008 10:02 AM
>>> To: commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Commons-research] Commons-research Digest,
Vol 2, Issue 14
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We can presumably have some kind of speaker agreement, that
asks them to
>>> indicate whether they are happy for their materials to be made
>>> available, and if so how.
>>>
>>> Unless the iSummit has a global policy on this.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jessica Coates
>>> Project Manager
>>> Creative Commons Clinic
>>> Queensland University of Technology
>>>
>>> ph: 07 3138 8301
>>> fax: 07 3138 9598
>>> email: j2.coates AT qut.edu.au
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: commons-research-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>> [mailto:commons-research-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On
Behalf Of
>>> commons-research-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 March 2008 3:21 AM
>>> To: commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subject: Commons-research Digest, Vol 2, Issue 14
>>>
>>> Send Commons-research mailing list submissions to
>>> commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-research
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> commons-research-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>>
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>> commons-research-owner AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Commons-research digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: (almost) final CFP (Giorgos Cheliotis)
>>>
>>>
>>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:45:41 +0800
>>> From: "Giorgos Cheliotis" <giorgos AT smu.edu.sg>
>>> Subject: Re: [Commons-research] (almost) final CFP
>>> To: <commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <FA3090E732DC6A4EB8E2D875EEB486A58C4515 AT EX01.staff.smu.edu.sg>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> Good point, so far we make it clear that the extended
abstracts will be
>>> published online, but haven't specified anything for the
presentation
>>> slides. People will be likely making last-minute edits to
their slides
>>> shortly before they present, so this would be something I
would prefer
>>> to bring up during the workshop.
>>>
>>> Also, some researchers may not want to share their slides,
for example
>>> if these contain very early results, so I think we could
bring this up
>>> during the workshop and discuss possible objections to
this, if any. I
>>> support open access, but I'm also sensitive to the reasons
why some
>>> people may not want to make all their presentation material
publicly
>>> available, so perhaps we can have an opt-out system where
open access to
>>> presentation files is the default and if someone wants to
opt out they
>>> can express this during the workshop.
>>>
>>> Sounds reasonable?
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: commons-research-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf
of Gavin
>>> Baker
>>> Sent: Mon 3/24/2008 12:22 AM
>>> To: commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Commons-research] (almost) final CFP
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> May I suggest that the CFP include a statement that
accepted researchers
>>> will be expected to provide a copy of their presentation
for free
>>> distribution online?
>>>
>>> I think it is valuable to be explicit and up-front about
open access; in
>>> this way, open access becomes the norm.
>>>
>>> Giorgos Cheliotis wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> please take a look at the *latest and almost final CFP*.
This will
>>>> debut
>>>> soon on the icommons site but first I want to pass it
through all of
>>>> you
>>>> quickly to check for mistakes and ask for your general
feedback.
>>>>
>>>> Jonathan Zittrain has agreed to chair the workshop, and I
think he is a
>>>> wonderful fit for that role. As his bandwidth is limited I
will help
>>>> him
>>>> as co-chair and for now I'm still the main driver of the
CFP in any
>>>> case. I have also asked Tyng-Ruey Chuang to co-chair given his
>>>> excellent
>>>> organization of the Asian Commons meeting this year and
his links to
>>>> the
>>>> broader Asian academic community. As he has recent
hands-on experience
>>>> with organizing a very successful workshop and the iSummit
this year
>>>> will be in Asia, I thought that Tyng-Ruey will be of great
assistance,
>>>> and indeed he has already started contributing greatly.
>>>>
>>>> There is some more additions to the academic program
committee, to
>>>> increase international representation and the mix of
senior vs more
>>>> junior scholars. Please do check that your name and
affiliation are
>>>> correct and appear where they should.
>>>>
>>>> I hope that the above arrangement and the text in the CFP
is acceptable
>>>> by most, if not by all. Do send any comments that you may
have. Plans
>>>> for the speed-geeking session are also underway.
>>>>
>>>> Please also note in the CFP under "Workshop Format" a short
>>>> paragraph suggesting that members of the academic program
committee
>>>> will
>>>> be able to submit work as well, but will be subject to the
same review
>>>> process and their participation in the committee will not
guarantee
>>>> acceptance.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> best,
>>>> Giorgos
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Commons-research mailing list
>>>> Commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-research
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Gavin Baker
>>> http://www.gavinbaker.com/
>>> gavin AT gavinbaker.com
>>>
>>> What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble
causes and
>>> to make this muddled world a better place for those who
will live in it
>>> after we are gone?
>>> Winston Churchill
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Commons-research mailing list
>>> Commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-research
>>>
>>>
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>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Commons-research mailing list
>>> Commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-research
>>>
>>>
>>> End of Commons-research Digest, Vol 2, Issue 14
>>> ***********************************************
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Commons-research mailing list
>>> Commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-research
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Commons-research mailing list
>>> Commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-research
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> James Cairns
>>
>> maczomba AT mac.com <mailto:maczomba AT mac.com> or james AT icommons.org
>> <mailto:james AT icommons.org>
>> +27(0)833003350
>> skype: maczomba
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Commons-research mailing list
>> Commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-research
>>
>>
>>
>>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Commons-research mailing list
>> Commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-research
>>
>
>
> --
> koordynator / public lead
> Creative Commons Polska / Poland
> http://creativecommons.pl <http://creativecommons.pl/>
> skype: alektarkowski
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-research mailing list
> Commons-research AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-research


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