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  • From: DONKA RADEVA <donnybg@yahoo.com>
  • To: "stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com" <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
  • Cc: Alessandro Ardovini <alexardov@gmail.com>, Andy Goldring <andyg@permaculture.org.uk>, Tim <t.shanks@ymail.com>, Permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, europeanpermaculturenetwork <europeanpermaculturenetwork@googlegroups.com>, Carlos Louge <carlos.louge@yahoo.com.ar>, landbase <landbase@gmail.com>, Hal Paine <comet761@gmail.com>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] [eu-pc-network] Re: Permaculture Economics..a NEW SCHOOL ?
  • Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 21:07:27 +0000 (UTC)

Hi Steve,
I will be further active on 2 science projects and in the meantime hope to be
able to go on with the university activity as a lecturer. But perhaps in
another Economic university here - at the seaside on the north in Bulgaria,
where I felt in love and will re-develop a permaculture garden in a beautiful
village with my partner. We are building the paradise here first and then
come to do common things with you in New Zealand :-) or you with Martina and
kids are coming here again ... let see what the future brings to us ... :-)

Best from Sofia,
Donka

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 9:36 PM, Steve Hart
<stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> wrote:


Donka..are you continuing your activity and presence at your university ? if
so in what capacity ? will you be lecturing or mentoring Masters students
?...or are you soon to emmigrate to New Zealand ? Steve Hart
On 16 February 2017 at 00:35, DONKA RADEVA <donnybg@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Steve and all,
Another good source is this book - The Blue Economy. I have it in Bulgarian.
:-)
https://books.google.bg/books/ about/The_Blue_Economy.html?
id=aJ3HZD1H7ZsC&source=kp_ cover&redir_esc=y
A new school is smth. valuable to work on ... I hope in the near future to
have some student network. It is of course not very easy because a work in
this direction is gravitating around the edges and not attractive for
everybody to undertake the challenge.
There are also many people and researchers from this network https://
europeancommonsassembly.eu/  and this list: commonswatch@lists.
p2pfoundation.net, who are very active with the topic Commons on all levels -
food, economy, democracy etc.

All the best,
Donka





On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 10:44 PM, Steve Hart
<stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> wrote:


Another good book
Herman Daly & Joshua Farley"Ecological Economics principles and applicxations"
Steve Hart


On 15 February 2017 at 09:34, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> wrote:

Another book which I'm sure many are aware of by 
Herman Daly & John Cobb Jr 
"For the Common Good" 
www.scottlondon.com/reviews/ daly.html
Steve Hart
On 13 February 2017 at 09:01, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Andy and Carlos.
Andy are you presenting anything at this conference ? It would be good to see
what rationale is evolving for any ethic and philosophy for this New School
of Economics. I have had chat with a number of different thoughts with the
basis always folding back to realising an ethic and philosophy from
preservation and organic growth that builds ecosystems and build resources
rather than consuming. So its a complete reversal of the paradigm we are all
locked into on a ferris wheel that we can not jump off..unless we develop a
gradual pathway of initiatives and networks. There are many good models
already emerging throughout our networks. 
Andy..perhaps some funding needs to be found to employ someone to put
together a research of all models and design a linkage to them. Maybe there
is someone like Donka who is about to finish her PhD..someone preparing to do
a Masters or PhD who may like to pull these threads together.
There are schools emerging in Denmark and Ireland too. Hal can you comment on
theses. 
Ross can you comment on the many small models evolving you have seen.
Social Permaculture is emerging stronger and stronger which will evolve many
such models. These are the practical strategies down the line of the stream
of Planning. Cart before the horse perhaps. It may be of benefit to evolve
the extending thinking by working through an Ethic and Philosophy to
Principles and Policy then encapsulate these strategies and models as
examples of such EPPP.
The Ferris Wheel has been very well designed since the 14th C. It locks in
every stream of society including the legal system, which is different from
law. It locks in much of the mainstream education and science, engineering
and communication/media as well off course all bureaucrazy.
To understand this is the beginning, where we need to start, it is not about
any conspiracy or dooms day ..it is a learning curve very valuable to be able
to begin a journey on designing a new economy. It is about understanding
where has our existing paradigm come from ? who designed it ? how ? and why ?
for what purpose and what gain ? Simply, the entire global and legal system
which controls every aspect of society has been designed and maintained by
the Rothschilds and their Bank of England. Sure there are snippets of
paranoia, but any smart person who can join the dots will figure it out
quickly.....Steve Hart


As mentioned in an earlier email
On 11 February 2017 at 00:29, Alessandro Ardovini <alexardov@gmail.com> wrote:

Awesome, Andy! I would love to hear about that!
2017-02-10 11:12 GMT+01:00 Andy Goldring <andyg@permaculture.org.uk>:

Hi all, I am going to this conference and I'm in touch with the organisers
- they are keen to for permaculture to be there. We have promoted the survey
about the manifesto in the network.
Andy

On 09/02/17 19:39, Steve Hart wrote:

Hi guys..here is another initiative that could be linked in some way
http://neweconomyforum.org/man ifesto/

Steve Hart
On 9 February 2017 at 10:15, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Tim..which idea do you support ? The development formation of a new
school ?  I do too, absolutely !
However fraught with dangers  of diversion and infiltration it may be, we
still need to develop it. As a piece of black humour we could have the very
first meeting / conference at a facility in Switzerland called Mont Pelerin.
I assume you are familiar with The Mont Pelerin Society" its beginning,
evolution  and history ? 
https://www.montpelerin.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Mont_P%C3%A8lerin

Or we could invite it in association with IPC13 in India, 
http://ipcindia2017.org /
Hear from you soon to further develop the idea
Steve Hart
On 3 February 2017 at 20:16, Tim <t.shanks@ymail.com> wrote:

Hi Steve, Sounds like a very interesting idea which I fully support. Best
regards, Tim

On 25/01/2017 03:11, Steve Hart wrote:

Hi Donny..an interesting paper which opens the exploration. Perhaps the
question goes back to the development of the world of Economics. Developed
from Rothschilds circa 14th century, pursuit of building the industry of
usery and slavery to maintain usery. Today the entire world are still slaves
to this economic policy which controls every aspect of todays  world.  We
have been conditioned to it through generations. Perhaps 1% live as the kings
of the slavery. It has been specifically designed this way for that purpose.
The only way we will evolve is to redesign the usery / consumerist / growth
/ entropic paradigm or policy. It must change to conservation / fair share /
ecological sustainability. Perhaps your "New Agriculturalists"
sub-consciously seek the new paradigm and are very slowly emerging into it.
There is also a warm-fuzzy growth in "Commons" and "Peasantry" perhaps
through similar sub-conscious fervour. None of which comes from a planned or
designed framework or school. This book is one of a new pattern that begins
working in this area 
"Growing A New Economy: Beyond Crisis Capitalism & Environmental
Destruction ​"​ Roar Bjonnes and Caroline Hargreaves InnerWorld Publications 
San Germán, Puerto Rico www.innerworldpublication s.com
But we still have a long way to go. Perhaps we could open a new school to
evolve it further I'm sure Tim Shanks would support such.
Keep me posted on your next layer of papers
Warm regards
Steve Hart
On 24 January 2017 at 11:35, DONKA RADEVA <donnybg@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Steve,
I'm just at the end, have less than 2 weeks to deliver it in my department
and too much work now. I'm ready with the research results and about to
publish some of them but still in Bulgarian language. Later on will do this
in English. I'm attaching one of my articles /in collaboration/ in English,
unpublished yet, and still on the theoretical part of the research and it is
around looking for an economic thought.
Will let you know more in details later on, when less hectic around all of
these. :-)

Best,
Donka

On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 12:22 AM, Steve Hart
<stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> wrote:


Hi Donny..howz the PhD going ? what stage are you at ? perhaps time
to release a few snippets on this network. Do not hesitate to ask for any
material through this network. Did you find any models you could use ? And
we await your arrival in NZ..Steve
On 24 January 2017 at 10:57, DONKA RADEVA via permaculture
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.or g> wrote:

Amazing project, Steve! Keep hard working and have much luck!
Best wishes to Martina and kids!
Donka

    On Monday, January 23, 2017 5:38 AM, Lawrence London
<lfljvenaura@gmail.com> wrote:


 On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 8:00 PM, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
wrote:

> 13 acres...riveralluvial...just spent 60 hrs on the 14 ton digger doing
> flood retention ponds and swales and flloodways. I'm presently looking at
> a
>

That is a great plan. I hope it all goes together well. I did something
similar with a large farm tractor and many implements and a medium sized
skid loader: as you said, retention ponds (3), swales/dams/berms/terraces
and the floodways directed at the ponds; excess rainfall carefully
channeled into the ponds from wherever on the property.it originates. I
will post some pix to illustrate the functionality of the overall system.

small flood channel that meanders through the property to design a
> temperate zone chanampa...or real aquaponic system.
>

Will there be eels in the chinampas? There is a big market for eels in
Japan.

I would really like to do this also but my soil ios too permeable to hold
water long enough to support the garden component. I am lucky to keep water
in the retention ponds.


> Put a few Sth Devon
> Bulls on to process pasture, manure one  paddock, chooks have started White
> Orpingtons. Have ordered a range of trees for next planting season
> including 800 apple pear plum and 200 avocado.
>

Wonderful!


> My 4 yr old daughter
> conducted her first inpromtu garden tour the other day for a visitor and
> with her 2 yr old sister put together a salad for lunch consisting of 40
> different species.
>

Now that is living right. Proper salads, the true staff of life! I plan on
a big salad and greens garden this coming Spring
and hopefully plenty of corn, tomatoes, peppers and onions.


> Also in the middle of converting an old cow shed /
> shearing shed into a dwelling..all off grid....a shed it will remain for
> authorities to dwell on...so its all go ...just printed off an AO size
>

Right.


> survey plan to draw up the design for presentation purposes.
>

I would like to see that.


> We will be
> reincarnating the original Permaculture Institute of NZ soon and may seek
> collaboration with Larry n Scott et al for a branch of their Academy. But,
> there is only 36 hrs in a day....all good..Steve Hart
>

That must be done and the sooner the better. You have my recommendation.

Onward!

LL

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Steve Hart Ecology Architect Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically
Sustainable Resilient Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture,
Landscape Architecture and Systems Ecology.​
Skype: tipenemanawa
Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
Permaculture Global Design:  www.permacultureglobaldesign.o rg
The Permaculture International College  www.permaculturecollege.eu 
https://permaculturecollege.ac ademia.edu/SteveHart

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www.permaculturepartnerships.c om






--
Kia ora Ehoa


Steve Hart Ecology Architect Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically
Sustainable Resilient Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture,
Landscape Architecture and Systems Ecology.​
Skype: tipenemanawa
Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
Permaculture Global Design:  www.permacultureglobaldesign.o rg
The Permaculture International College  www.permaculturecollege.eu 
https://permaculturecollege.ac ademia.edu/SteveHart

GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and Solutions. 
www.permaculturepartnerships.c om






--
Kia ora Ehoa


Steve Hart Ecology Architect Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically
Sustainable Resilient Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture,
Landscape Architecture and Systems Ecology.​
Skype: tipenemanawa
Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
Permaculture Global Design:  www.permacultureglobaldesign.o rg
The Permaculture International College  www.permaculturecollege.eu 
https://permaculturecollege.ac ademia.edu/SteveHart

GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and Solutions. 
www.permaculturepartnerships.c om




--
Kia ora Ehoa


Steve Hart Ecology Architect Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically
Sustainable Resilient Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture,
Landscape Architecture and Systems Ecology.​
Skype: tipenemanawa
Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
Permaculture Global Design:  www.permacultureglobaldesign.o rg
The Permaculture International College  www.permaculturecollege.eu 
https://permaculturecollege.ac ademia.edu/SteveHart

GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and Solutions. 
www.permaculturepartnerships.c om
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Kia ora Ehoa


Steve HartEcology ArchitectDesigner, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically
Sustainable Resilient Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture,
Landscape Architecture and Systems Ecology.​
Skype: tipenemanawa
Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
Permaculture Global Design: www.permacultureglobaldesign.o rg
The Permaculture International College www.permaculturecollege.eu 
https://permaculturecollege.ac ademia.edu/SteveHart

GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and Solutions. 
www.permaculturepartnerships.c om




--
Kia ora Ehoa


Steve HartEcology ArchitectDesigner, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically
Sustainable Resilient Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture,
Landscape Architecture and Systems Ecology.​
Skype: tipenemanawa
Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
Permaculture Global Design: www.permacultureglobaldesign. org
The Permaculture International College www.permaculturecollege.eu 
https://permaculturecollege. academia.edu/SteveHart

GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and Solutions. 
www.permaculturepartnerships. com




--
Kia ora Ehoa


Steve HartEcology ArchitectDesigner, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically
Sustainable Resilient Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture,
Landscape Architecture and Systems Ecology.​
Skype: tipenemanawa
Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
Permaculture Global Design: www.permacultureglobaldesign. org
The Permaculture International College www.permaculturecollege.eu 
https://permaculturecollege. academia.edu/SteveHart

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Steve HartEcology ArchitectDesigner, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically
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Landscape Architecture and Systems Ecology.​
Skype: tipenemanawa
Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
Permaculture Global Design: www.permacultureglobaldesign.org
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Greetings Christopher

Please send pics to Kiel via Kane Jamison. He is handling Toby's
Permaculture affairs for her and running a little interference on her
behalf.

Best to you,

L

Kane Jamison <kane@contentharmony.com>

*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . .*
Larry Santoyo, Program Director
​The ​
Permaculture Academy <http://permacultureacademy.com/>
(310) 383-5495
*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . .*

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:35 AM, christopher nesbitt <
christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org> wrote:

> I have a lot of pictures of Toby from 2006. I would like to share them with
> his wife, Kiel. Does anyone have her email address?
>
> _____________________________
>
> Christopher Nesbitt
>
>
> Maya Mountain Research Farm
>
> San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
>
> PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
>
> BELIZE,
>
> Central America
>
>
> www.mmrfbz.org
> www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
>
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 2:38 PM, <scott@permaculture.org> wrote:
>
> > It is with deep regret that I hear of Toby's passing on the darkest day
> of
> > the year. For me this darkness is increased by the loss of the great
> light
> > born by Toby.
> >
> > I met Toby in 1996 at Fossil Rim Texas where Bill Mollison and I had
> > convened a Permaculture Design Course. It was being held at a wildlife
> > refuge that had as a primary purpose the rescue of the White Lipped
> Rhino.
> > The class was, as usual, a very rambunctious group full of themselves and
> > dreams of a greener future. Toby fit right in to this emerging family of
> > pioneer radicals.
> >
> > I was struck by the intense intellect that Toby brought to the class and
> > his immediate understanding of what permaculture was all about. In a
> very
> > short time Toby had created a rural property and written a book. His
> book
> > Gaia's Garden was and is the best seller of permaculture design books. I
> > very soon looked to Toby as my own sounding board on issues that I was
> > struggling with in the organizational structure of permaculture as well
> as
> > the deeper philosophical questions that are inevitable if one is serious
> > about the implications of permacutlure. Toby was always willing to enter
> > into discussions of depth and he obviously thought a lot about
> permaculture
> > and the patterns of permaculture.
> >
> > I will miss this fellow traveler and his sagacity I will also miss the
> > twinkle in his eye and the shy boy that lay just under the surface of his
> > smile. I look forward to our next meeting in a better place that I am
> sure
> > Toby will be a major part of its design.
> >
> > I pray that my love will find you well and in peace.
> >
> > Scott Pittman
> > Director
> > Permaculture Institute America
> >
> > > -------Original Message-------
> > > From: Jacqueline Greenleaf <jacque@book-woman.net>
> > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] CANCER /Toby Hemenway
> > > Sent: Dec 20 '16 17:35
> > >
> > > "It’s with the deepest grief that I tell you that Toby passed away
> > early this morning, Tuesday, Dec. 20. We were both so very moved by the
> > outpouring of love and support from all of you. Before we settled down
> for
> > the night, Toby was looking at your messages and the notifications of
> > donations. He was touched beyond belief. Those were the last moments
> that I
> > saw him alive—bathed in your love and appreciation. I couldn’t have
> wanted
> > a better end for him.
> > >
> > > Thank you all from the bottom of my heart. I will never forget your
> > love.
> > >
> > > I will use your donations to pay for his hospice care this past week,
> > as well as cremation and service (details are yet to be worked out) and
> to
> > help me with living expenses while I start a new life. We will close this
> > site [YouCaring page] soon. If you feel moved to make further donations
> for
> > my support during this transition, it would be deeply appreciated. But
> > please know that your love and support have blessed Toby’s and my life
> > forever. We are so grateful.
> > >
> > > May Toby’s legacy be carried forward by all you good people.
> > >
> > > Blessings and gratitude,
> > >
> > > Kiel Hemenway”
> > >
> > > https://permies.com/t/41999/Official-Toby-Hemenway-Thread#520728
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Dec 20, 2016, at 4:14 PM, Jacqueline Greenleaf <
> > jacque@book-woman.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Toby died this morning.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> On Dec 20, 2016, at 3:45 PM, Steve Hart <
> > stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> I read with sadness this story, also with degrees of anger of what
> > the
> > > >> conventional world is laying on people in our family. Health has
> > been a big
> > > >> issue in my life where I enjoy searching for solutions that deliver
> > best
> > > >> results. Cancer is atop of the list. There are many many stories
> out
> > there.
> > > >> A close work associate "G" has a long time school buddy in the
> > exact same
> > > >> position as Toby..cancer via pancreas spreading to liver. G dropped
> > > >> everything and visited his buddy with procedures to flush all the
> > poisons
> > > >> out through enemas and strict raw diets, aloe vera, hyrdrogen
> > peroxide and
> > > >> terpentine. He has had an amazing recovery and full turn around
> > within 3
> > > >> months. Thrown away the conventional medical industry and their
> > > >> chemotherapy. There are many similar stories. So its welcoming and
> > > >> heartening to know there are positive options which are never too
> > late. I
> > > >> hope Toby you do have these same / similar support networks
> > available for
> > > >> you. If not just do feel free to say so and we will jump into gear
> > to be
> > > >> there....Then we will see another book on the library...Steve Hart
> > > >>
> > > >> TOBY HEMENWAY – PERMACULTURE CRUSADER – NEEDS YOUR HELP
> > > >> DECEMBER 20, 2016 BY THE PERMACULTURE RESEARCH INSTITUTE
> > > >> <http://permaculturenews.org/author/editor/> & FILED UNDER GENERAL
> > > >> <http://permaculturenews.org/category/general/>
> > > >>
> > > >> [image: Toby_Hemenway_01]
> > > >> For years, Toby Hemenway has been a crusader for permaculture and
> > other
> > > >> ecological issues within the United States. At first a very
> talented
> > > >> researcher in the fields of genetics and immunology, Toby has
> > transformed
> > > >> into a pioneer of permaculture over the course of his life. The
> > author of
> > > >> multiple books (including the best-selling permaculture book in the
> > > >> world,*Gaia’s
> > > >> Garden: A Guide to Home-Scale Permaculture*), as well as a scholar
> > > >> representing a handful of universities, he currently acts as a
> > director at
> > > >> the U.S. Permaculture Institute. His latest book, on urban
> > permaculture, *The
> > > >> Permaculture City*, came out last year. Toby has taught more than
> 60
> > > >> 72-hour permaculture design courses and consistently speaks at
> > > >> sustainability conferences and events. He is the founder of urban
> > > >> sustainability resources in Portland, and of a rural permaculture
> > site in
> > > >> southern Oregon.
> > > >>
> > > >> Sadly, tragedy struck Toby and his family in 2015. In the fall of
> > that
> > > >> year, he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. After undergoing
> > > >> chemotherapy, he was nevertheless told that his cancer had spread
> > from his
> > > >> pancreas to his liver. While Toby had recently begun his second
> > round of
> > > >> chemo in October, he developed septic shock just last month. Septic
> > shock
> > > >> occurs when an immune system weakened by cancer allows for a
> > widespread
> > > >> infection in the blood, as well as dangerously low blood pressure.
> > Since,
> > > >> additional scans show the cancer continues to spread. As of last
> > week, Toby
> > > >> has signed up for home hospice.
> > > >> [image: Toby_Hemenway_02]
> > > >> Obviously, Toby is unable to work in his condition, and his wife
> has
> > > >> dedicated herself to caring for him full time. During this
> difficult
> > > >> season, the family continues to require the basic necessities for
> > > >> day-to-day life and caregiving. Currently, Toby and his family have
> > set up
> > > >> a crowdfunding account on YouCaring to assist them with their
> primary
> > > >> needs. With a $25,000 goal, they’re on their way to covering their
> > > >> expenses, but still need your help.
> > > >>
> > > >> [image: Koanga Banner 2]
> > > >> <https://www.generosity.com/community-fundraising/the-
> > seed-campaign--3>
> > > >>
> > > >> The Permaculture Research Institute encourages the permaculture
> > community
> > > >> to rally behind Toby and his family in this very trying time, to
> > show love
> > > >> and support whatever comes their way. During the upcoming holidays,
> > as most
> > > >> of us are spending time with our families and appreciating our many
> > > >> blessings, take a moment to remember those who have been hit with
> > > >> unexpected misfortune, and help in however you’re equipped.
> > Donations of
> > > >> any amount can be made on Toby’s YouCaring site,
> > > >> https://www.youcaring.com/tobyhemenway-718641, and every single
> > donation is
> > > >> greatly appreciated.
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Kia ora Ehoa
> > > >>
> > > >> [image: Picture]
> > > >> *Steve Hart*
> > > >> *Ecology Architect*
> > > >> *Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically Sustainable Resilient
> > > >> Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture, Landscape
> > Architecture
> > > >> and Systems Ecology.​*
> > > >> Skype: tipenemanawa
> > > >> Phone: +64 220 75 62 11
> > > >>
> > > >> Permaculture Global Design:
> > > >> www.permacultureglobaldesign.org
> > > >>
> > > >> The Permaculture International College
> > > >> www.permaculturecollege.eu
> > > >> https://permaculturecollege.academia.edu/SteveHart
> > > >>
> > > >> GAPPS The Global Alliance for Permaculture Partnerships and
> > Solutions.
> > > >> www.permaculturepartnerships.com
> > > >> permaculture mailing list
> > > >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > > >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > >
> > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> > >
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> > >
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