permaculture

[Michael Elvin <marimike6@yahoo.com>]

Declan,
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    On Monday, August 1, 2016 3:42 AM, scrooge McDuck <declan@planetmail.net> 
wrote:
 

  Why am I still on this list? Why is there no automatic unsubscribe method 
like every other list?
BTW, discussion of PISS or any other subjects without the power to enact 
decisions is HOT AIR, and no more . Permaculture as it stands is headless, 
unstructured, disunited and largely indifferent to its own structural 
inadequacy. The future view is dated and flawed. Good luck doing much.
-- 
Declan Moriarty
Sent from my Android tablet with mail.com Mail. Please excuse my brevity.On 
01/08/2016, 00:23 Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com> wrote:
 On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 2:49 PM, Georg Parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at> wrote:
 
 > please do not get me wrong - sorry when I was unclear here. I personally
 > feel that a discussion of invisible structures is a highly impoertant part
 > of why I am on this international list. Nut’n’bolts info is valuable, and I
 > think none of us can ever have too much of that, but I feel that for the
 > visible structures there are plenty of good solutions around, locally and
 > beyond. Even 50% of what I know about them right now and my design training
 > and experience would be ample enough IF I could and would apply them
 > unhindered by the current invisible structures in place. So discussion on
 > HOW we can design and implement WHICH invisible structures is highly 
 > needed.
 >
 > I think we can also all agree on the notion, that interlocking our horns
 > on our favoured propaganda-fed belief systems is something we could do
 > without - BUT in order to grow in our inner freedom from those influences
 > it might need some of that. It might be helpful in realizing or
 > discriminating between, what are original thougths and what are
 > propaganda-driven emotional reactions to distorted perception of reality.
 > This is tricky business, and I appreciate these discussions.
 >
 > This is brilliant, Georg. I am with you 100% May discussion roll
 unhindered and without anyone unsubscribing. Steve can look for rules to
 break but he might not find any. :-)
 
 
 > I interpreted that naming the invisible structures group PISS as a
 > Freudian sign of you being pissed about said confrontations.
 >
 
 Well, I realized my error in the content of some of my posts, current
 politics, but at least it got some discussion going. Actually I did not
 have that in mind, with all respects to Sigmund, but it was definitely
 irreverent and heretical. Google would probably block searches to such
 archives.
 
 >
 > I personally think that a separate group for this would attract little
 > attention and soon die. To this mix is a good solution, in spite of some
 > pleople signing off ever now and then.
 >
 
 I agree.
 
 LL
 --
 Lawrence F. London
 lfljvenaura@gmail.com
 https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
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>From scott@permaculture.org  Mon Aug  1 13:42:58 2016
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 I personally think that a separate group for this would attract little 
attention and soon die. To this mix is a good solution, in spite of some 
pleople signing off ever now and then. -- Georg Parlow

Therein lies the problem, Georg.  I have been teaching permaculture for the 
past 30+ years and for half of that time I have been insisting on the 
importance of invisible structures.  Mollison taught that visible structures 
were those that showed us "what" to do and invisible structures taught us 
"how" to do it.  Without the how too we are just an encyclopedia of 
techniques and methods of dealing with the material world.  Once we dig deep 
into the invisible structures we find we are able to dance around the legal, 
financial, and social structures that are the primary impediments to 
realizing our dreams.

I also include permaculture ethics in the invisible structures though they 
are mostly poorly taught in the Permaculture Design Course by many teachers 
who are not engaged in the ethics themselves.  Care of the Earth, Care of 
People and Return all excess yield to the Care of the Earth and People sounds 
simple enough but if one truly applies ones thoughts to deeply understanding 
these three ethics it leads us deeper into the realm of the unknown.  I, 
personally, think that "Care" should be replaced with the word "Love" to get 
the deeper significance of these ethics.

I have been living on a yoga ashram for the past year seeking a deeper 
understanding of the invisible and have been humbled by my ignorance of the 
necessity to understand consciousness.  Physicists, philosophers, 
theologians, and gurus of all stripes have sought to understand consciousness 
and the deep appeal of materialism for hundreds of years but few have 
actually reached that pinnacle of understanding.  After a year of sitting on 
a zafu in meditation twice a day, 7 days a week find myself no closer to 
understanding anything except that I know that there is an answer and that 
meditation, prayer, contemplation, and altered states are all methods that 
are directed at self realization.  It is a difficult process to overcome the 
incessant chatter of the mind whose primary purpose in life is to keep us 
tethered to the material plane.

We no longer have the Wisdom Schools of the past to provide us with direct 
knowledge of this process.  We have become so embedded in the materialistic 
plane that we all are narcissists to a greater or lesser degree.  We 
currently have a candidate for president of the USA who is the ultimate 
narcissist, while the other candidate is a narcissist in denial.  Our hunger 
for stuff/things has led to the destruction of our biosphere and to wars to 
steal the stuff from other cultures and places.  We are engaged in the final 
spasms of destroying ourselves and the planet to feed an insatiable appetite 
for something to fill the void in our existence.  As permaculture designers 
it is incumbent upon us to find our way back to the garden.

When I haven't been meditating I have been trying to write a book titled 
"Dharma of Permaculture".  Dharma being the law of the cosmos as it is 
reflected in us.  This was what the ten commandments were attempting, and the 
beatitudes of Jesus Christ was trying to articulate.  Buddha, Lao Tsu, 
Mohammed, Yogis, and other avatars throughout the ages have sought to 
articulate humans role in creation and have offered rules of behavior to 
guide us to that understanding.

I believe that permaculture ethics are an outline of how humans should 
survive and that the "natural principals" show us the dharma of the natural 
world around us.  It has been through permaculture that I have slowly come to 
realize that I am here to caretake or husband this incredible creation that 
we no longer recognize the beauty and stunning intelligence of.

I would love for other to join me in seeking better solutions to life than 
the ones we currently worship.
>  

>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: Linda Ray <lindaray@att.net>
>  To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Subject: Re: [permaculture] [OT] My Vision of the Future
>  Sent: Jul 31 '16 18:21
>  
>  I'm with Georg on this.JMHO.
>  
>  Namaste,
>  Linda :-)
>  
>  
>        From: Georg Parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at>
>  To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2016 11:49 AM
>  Subject: Re: [permaculture] [OT] My Vision of the Future
>    
>  Lawrence,
>  
>  >>> someone can create a Google Group PISS (permaculture invisible systems
>  >> and
>  >>> structures)
>  >>
>  >> ROTFLOL
>  >>
>  > ...
>  > …
>  > You might disagree with me Georg.
>  
>  please do not get me wrong - sorry when I was unclear here. I personally 
>feel that a discussion of invisible structures is a highly impoertant part 
>of why I am on this international list. Nut’n’bolts info is valuable, and I 
>think none of us can ever have too much of that, but I feel that for the 
>visible structures there are plenty of good solutions around, locally and 
>beyond. Even 50% of what I know about them right now and my design training 
>and experience would be ample enough IF I could and would apply them 
>unhindered by the current invisible structures in place. So discussion on 
>HOW we can design and implement WHICH invisible structures is highly needed.
>  
>  I think we can also all agree on the notion, that interlocking our horns 
>on our favoured propaganda-fed belief systems is something we could do 
>without - BUT in order to grow in our inner freedom from those influences it 
>might need some of that. It might be helpful in realizing or discriminating 
>between, what are original thougths and what are propaganda-driven emotional 
>reactions to distorted perception of reality. This is tricky business, and I 
>appreciate these discussions.
>  
>  I interpreted that naming the invisible structures group PISS as a 
>Freudian sign of you being pissed about said confrontations.
>  
>  I personally think that a separate group for this would attract little 
>attention and soon die. To this mix is a good solution, in spite of some 
>pleople signing off ever now and then.
>  
>  Georg
>  (Vienna, Austria, EU)
>  permaculture mailing list
>  permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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>  
>  
>    
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