permaculture

[Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>]

More in this thread, aquaponics biology, food producing aquaponics rafts
used for bioremediation/nutrient recycling
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Kally Goschke kallygos@mac.com [compost_tea] <
compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 4:42 AM
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Aquaponics Biology
To: "compost_tea@yahoogroups.com" <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>




Thank you Elaine. I would definitely term Beauveria as a predator in my
article and try my best to inform of the biology present.

We have started using Cathartus quadricollis and Leptophloeus sp. for
predating upon Coffee Berry borer eggs & larvae. We farmers got kits to
grow them legally so I will make the connection .

Do you think a conidia moved will survive and sporulate? We need to take
the coffee beans out of the orchard but could perhaps leave the infected
CBB bodies.

Kally

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 21, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Elaine Ingham soilfoodweb@aol.com
[compost_tea] <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Hi Kally ---

Verbiage, and slick lawyers and advertising people who spin the truth to
allow big business to keep making profit.  So, to make certain that you
don't fall into their traps, you have to be careful how you talk about the
benefits that soil life can give plants.

Because I don't sell a product, I can talk about the roles and functions of
bacteria, fungi, protozoa and nematodes and how important they are in
suppressing and preventing diseases and pests.  I can talk about how the
food web provides ALL the nutrients for plant growth without the need for
inorganic fertilizers.

But, if you sell a product, a great deal of care has to be used when
describing what the organisms do.  Often, because the precise organism(s)
that perform those any particular role or function in the soil haven't been
enumerated by species in the product, labeling laws can't be satisfied.
Often the research hasn't been done to show the exact benefit of each
bacterial or fungal or protozoan species.

Because we aren't using a one compound - one effect product, or one species
- one effect material, it is difficult to satisfy labeling laws.  When the
cause - effect relationship is moderated by several species, working
together, to cause resistance, or several species of bacteria, fungi,
protozoa and nematodes all have to be present and functioning to cycle
nutrients to benefit the plant, and the species change with temperature,
moisture and soil type, climate, etc., it is impossible to satisfy labeling
laws.

So, the products get stuck having to be vague in their labeling.

We see the same problem with pro-biotics in human health.  It isn't ONE
species of yeast that will solve all digestive system problems.  The human
digestive system is a complex system, and sometimes it is species A,
sometimes species Q, and sometimes species a,b,c,q,s,u,x working together,
in all their combinations that solve the problem.

So until all of these subtle changes can be documented and replicated, we
rely on what we have relied on for millenia.  Make sure conditions are
correct when producing the mix of organisms, such as in sour kraut,
kimchee, yeast-raised bread, yogurts (food), or the compost and soil.
Document the set of microbes that develop, in the correct set of
conditions, so no harmful organisms sneak in.  Do assessments of disease or
pest organisms present.

But in both cases, don't use terms that sound like beneficial organisms
have pesticidal effects.  Nature rarely controls pests or diseases by
KILLING the pest or disease.  Nature works by changing the habitat, the
environment, or the conditions so the diseases and pests can't grow, can't
cause problems.

Now, one can argue that since Beauveria is a fungus that attacks the
soft-bodied part of insect exoskeletons, and turns those insects into food
to support the growth of the fungus, then Beauveria is a pesticide.   But
that IS NOT correct.  The interaction is actually that of a predator
(Beauveria) and prey (the insect).

if the EPA calls Beauveria a bio-pesticide, then we really have to label
cats, dogs, birds, spiders, lions. tigers and a host of other predators as
bio-pesticide organisms.  Which is just ridiculous.

These predators aren't bio-pesticides.  Their mode of action isn't that of
a toxic chemical.  Beauveria, cats and wolves will never wipe out their
prey groups.  Whereas toxic chemicals cause devastation of more than their
target organisms, killing thousands of other species of organisms......
including human beings if we come in contact with a high enough
concentration of the toxic chemical.

But get a lawyer twisting language to benefit the toxic chemical industry,
in order to make it difficult to label these natural biological
interactions, and all suddenly, dogs and cats and birds are going to have
to be restricted from being outside, because they might preform their
natural roles of controlling (not eliminating) their prey populations.

People need to really understand how biology works, so they don't fall into
the traps that people who want to convince them to buy something they don't
need, win by making use of natural, ecological interactions impossible to
use.

Elaine R. Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.       Soil Life Consultant
Since I travel a great deal, please consider that I may miss e-mails so if
I don't answer within 3 days, please try again.


-----Original Message-----
From: Kally Goschke kallygos@mac.com [compost_tea] <
compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
To: compost_tea <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 20, 2015 6:11 pm
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Aquaponics Biology


Thank you so very much Elaine!!

 I would like to write an article on keeping that Beauveria that people do
have alive and due to legal constraints and the Farmers Association's fear
of legal repercussions I cannot talk of growing the fungus/pesticide.

In my orchard I take the actual conidia itself and distribute it to areas
where there isn't as much but for people to actually grow in apply it
without a label they will lose their organic certification etc.

I would like to let people know about this just moving the conidia on their
own farm and hopefully they will read between the lines and see they can
take conidia from wild areas where it is common or biologically intact
farms like mine and use it instead and hopefully permanently and not be
relying on corporations products with questionable ingredients.

Question mainly is if they just move a conidia  ( and borer body) what
conditions need to be present for it to actually sporulate??



Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 20, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Elaine Ingham soilfoodweb@aol.com
[compost_tea] < compost_tea@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


In my experience, many species of all the organism groups survive and grow
in aquatic systems.  Root systems of all plants require nutrients to be
converted into plant available forms, and thus, the same system occurs in
water as in soil.  In fact, most soil species were first aquatic species,
and adapted for the small spaces and narrow passageways found in soil.

The organisms in compost are pretty much mainly the same as occur in soil.
  Consider where the organisms on plant surfaces aboveground come from
----- from the soil, carried to the plant surfaces by wind, or on the
surfaces of organisms that originally come from soil.  Root systems need
those same soil organisms, of course.

So, the species of bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and nematodes needed on root
systems, regardless of whether hte root is in water or in soil, are very
much the same.  There will be some species unique to the fully aquatic
system, or fully terrestrial system, but the majority can do fine in either
water or soil.

Have to head out, I'll try to respond to the rest of your mail later

Elaine R. Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.       Soil Life Consultant
Since I travel a great deal, please consider that I may miss e-mails so if
I don't answer within 3 days, please try again.


-----Original Message-----
From: gcesinc@yahoo.com [compost_tea] < compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
To: compost_tea < compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Aug 19, 2015 8:16 pm
Subject: [compost_tea] Aquaponics Biology


Hi all, first post to the group so pardon the newbie questions. First off
let me say that one of my goals is to qualify to become a soil foodweb
consultant concentrating my efforts within the Caribbean region and South
America, home is Barbados. Given my aspirations, I'm constantly seeking
opportunities to apply the knowledge gained from the soilfoodweb courses to
real world scenarios. Recently I've been working with one of my clients who
installed his first Aquaponics raft system, it's a design based on the Dr.
James Rakocy design but geared towards veg production vs fish. While still
relatively young, I believe around 5-6 months old, it had reached a point
where they were producing 6-7 week lettuce consistently. Unfortunately the
productivity was short lived. Growth soon slowed in lettuce varieties that
had previously grown vigorously while other plants like the mustards, kale
and even brassicas seemed to be grow vigorously. Eager to assist I offered
to take a look at the root systems of a couple varieties of lettuce,
however am now wondering, given the completely submerged nature of these
root systems, is it realistic for me to expect to see biology consistent
with that of compost. Will bacteria, fungi, nematodes, amoeba and micro
arthropods able to thrive in such an environment? As I haven't yet
purchased a DO meter I haven't been able to verify DO levels, however I
understand they should be maintained at around of 6 ppm in the grow bed.
Leading me to believe the biology could compare to that of a compost tea
brewer. Any assistance would be much appreciated.

Justin

__._,_.___
------------------------------
Posted by: Kally Goschke <kallygos@mac.com>
------------------------------
Reply via web post
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/compost_tea/conversations/messages/30912;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdWZvdDFxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc1MjcyMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3NDE4NjIwBG1zZ0lkAzMwOTEyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTQ0MDIzMjkzNQ--?act=reply&messageNum=30912>
• Reply to sender
<kallygos@mac.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcompost_tea%5D%20Aquaponics%20Biology>
• Reply to group
<compost_tea@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bcompost_tea%5D%20Aquaponics%20Biology>
• Start a New Topic
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/compost_tea/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZGRpMWN1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc1MjcyMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3NDE4NjIwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQ0MDIzMjkzNQ-->
• Messages in this topic
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/compost_tea/conversations/topics/30899;_ylc=X3oDMTM2dWpnc3BkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc1MjcyMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3NDE4NjIwBG1zZ0lkAzMwOTEyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQ0MDIzMjkzNQR0cGNJZAMzMDg5OQ-->
(14)
Visit Your Group
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/compost_tea/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNTFwbjMwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc1MjcyMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3NDE4NjIwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTQ0MDIzMjkzNQ-->

   - New Members
   
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/compost_tea/members/all;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNjZ2NGQyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzc1MjcyMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3NDE4NjIwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzE0NDAyMzI5MzU->
   2

[image: Yahoo! Groups]
<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZHBxcjg1BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzc1MjcyMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3NDE4NjIwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDQwMjMyOTM1>
• Privacy <https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html> •
Unsubscribe <compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
• Terms
of Use <https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/>

.

__,_._,___



-- 
Lawrence F. London
lfljvenaura@gmail.com
https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/