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permaculture - Re: [permaculture] Trojan Horses and Permaculture

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  • From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Trojan Horses and Permaculture
  • Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2013 00:19:27 -0400

On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jason Gerhardt
<jasongerhardt@gmail.com>wrote:

> Toby's new article was posted on PRI's website, I tried to comment, but am
> guessing I have been censored since I didn't bow down to Geoff Lawton. Just
>

Hilarious and not unexpected.


> trying to have my comment heard, somewhat futile to post it here, but in
>

Futile?


> case anyone is interested. It might seem out of context without reading the
> comments on PRI.


Not going to lure me to go there and read that stuff....juicy comments, etc.


> ---
> Geoff I am so surprised you would claim that the PDM is basically a
> flawless toolkit that can be applied wholesale.


The PDM is the definitive starting point for anyone interested in
permaculture;
it is a magnificent magnum opus, indispensible in learning how to become a
permaculture practitioner.


> You should research the
> numerous errors in that text (I’m aware that a lot of what is in there
> works too)? I absolutely love Bill Mollison (and PDM) and respect your
> teaching a ton, but what good does it do to insist that something with so
> many flaws is perfect? This book is a main reason, in my conversations with
> agro-ecologists, why scientists discount permaculture as phony science.
>

Why would anyone waste time on "scientists" discounting permaculture as
phony science
when it is not a science at all in the first place; it is a lens through
which you view the world, nature and the sciences
(crafts, arts, trades also) and how they all interrelate.


>
> It’s not actually the hippy memes that are discrediting permaculture for a
> lot of people; for a ton of people it was Bill Mollison himself.
> Sustainable/Organic agriculture conferences are full of obvious hippy
> types, and they are often the ones paid to speak! Scientists abound in
> these conferences as well, and they all listen to and learn from each other
> (gasp!).
>

What do you have against hippies? You owe it to yourself to spend some time
with all those
religo-wacko hippy haters at the notorious permies website.....you will
gain new attitude and appreciation for
alternative types (Mollison?). I spent decades in bohemian/beatnik/hippy
modes of living; this list is a product of that.
I get incensed when people go off on an anti-hippy rant; I think of what
happened to our counterparts in Argentina and Chile (genocide).
Take some time and use your brain; learn to view the world as it is. Don't
join the John Birch Society or send money to Pat Robertson....

LL

>
> The Permaculture I know and have worked in for the last 10 years embraces
> all the contributions that people have made to the field, not just blindly
> following Mollison. Mollison is a genius, obviously, but the founders of
> new fields are often eccentric and prone to exaggeration, so there is no
> need to accept his words as the holy gospel.
>

BS If you appreciate Mollison, say so less insults denigrating his
contribution.
If you make a contribution to the permaculture movement even remotely
comparable to his then maybe people will
pay attention to you.


>
> How I read Toby's article is that we need strategies, recipes, etc, that
> can lure people beyond the following-the-steps-approach and become pattern
> literate critical thinkers. If all we ever do is follow the recipes of PDM
> and others, we miss our chance to develop new ways of doing things (and
>

We need doers as well as people involved in new thinking and teaching.
People who work with their hands; if they follow
someone's step by step method, that is just fine. Finding new ways of doing
things, new methods to incorporate into the
permaculture manual, is easy these days; just look around, use Google,
watch videos, experiment on land you have access to.
Spare me the social engineering.


> will make a ton of errors in the process). Basically the PDM has taken the
> work of tons of pattern literate critical thinkers and put it into a manual
> (I will hesitate to call it a recipe book). Yes, a lot of it works and is
> sheer brilliance, and we should replicate that, but we should also be
> encouraging the development of new ideas and thinking in our students
> rather than just telling them what to do. It’s the old adage ‘don’t just
> tell me WHAT to think, teach me HOW to think’.
>
> There are hundreds of books as important as the PDM, most for other
reasons but all apply to the practice of permaculture and contribute
to a valuable knowledgebase.

Lastly, permaculture obviously means a lot of different things to different
> people. I no longer hope we can agree on what the term actually means. We
>

Of course we can agree on what permaulture means; that should be no problem
and above all no obstacle but always a stimulus for discussion and
exploration of new ideas and territory.

Wikipedia permaculture entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture
"Permaculture is a design system which aims to create sustainable
human habitats by following nature's patterns."

*Definitions of
Permaculture*<http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculture-definitions.faq>

http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculture-definitions.faq

have to remember that Permaculture is not the goal, it too is a Trojan
> horse. The goal is to make our actions have positive effects on ecosystems
> and to make such action and skills a regular/normalized aspect of human
> culture. Permaculture is a finger pointing to the moon. If you get stuck
> looking at the finger, you miss the whole point.
>

Having permaculture as a central focus, to keep in the forefront of your
mind is a great idea,
as a means to an end and as an end in itself but not a religion; bigger and
better Woo Woo Permaculture. If you search the archives for this list you
will find that the meaning of woo woo is
super enriched, enhanced, developed high energy distilled esence of
classic, advanced permaculture design and implementation, not airy fairey
stuff as wheaton like to call it. He offers PC courses "with zero woo woo";
if he only knew what he was saying...........

LL

> --
> Jason Gerhardt
>
> PO Box 4355
> Boulder, CO 80306
> 720-496-9744
>




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