permaculture

["John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>]

Interesting line of thought Chris even if I do feel we are running out of 
time.
John


> Kelda,
>
> I am not entirely comfortable with the concept of activism, which is one 
> of
> the reasons permaculture appeals to me so much. I did read the excerpt of
> the DGR book, and a few other things on their site, because I do share the
> frustration and despair they express at the way human civilization
> continues to consume resources and destroy ecosystems. I am not 
> necessarily
> arguing against DGR, but vocalizing the internal conflict I feel when I
> read what they advocate.
>
> My main concern with most activism, as I have seen and experienced it, is
> related to the basic principle that "resistance" to a thing actually adds
> energy to it. I have rarely witnessed someone win an argument, where the
> goal is to use words to convince someone that their opinion or actions are
> incorrect. More often, these interactions escalate and cause people on 
> both
> sides of the issue to do and say things they regret later, when their
> emotions fade. Rather than having the therapeutic effect I have heard
> touted, I find these exercises of anger and control to be exhausting and
> demoralizing. To each their own, I do not criticize activists for their
> personal choices. This is simply my response to activists who sneer at
> permaculturists for "checking out" and ignoring the problems. Walking away
> from industrialized society, or creating alternatives to it, is a vote of
> no confidence, an act of creation rather than destruction, and sometimes
> more powerful than resistance.
>
> It seems as if DGR has a bone to pick with patriarchy. I am a feminist, 
> but
> I don't see what that has to do with the survival of the planet. Some of
> the species we would like to save are patriarchal; by that same token, 
> some
> of the most successful human experiments in sustainable societies are
> patriarchal. The Anabaptist peoples (Amish, Mennonite, Hutterite) are
> examples of cultures that love and thrive without heavy reliance on
> extraction of natural resources. Most of the Israeli kibbutzim, after
> beginning as egalitarian collectives with complete gender equality, have
> now reverted to more traditional gender roles, yet have sustained a more
> harmonious way of life for a few generations. It seems counterproductive 
> to
> attack ways of life that are, by many measures, far superior to the ones
> which are truly destroying ecosystems. This just seems like a distraction
> from the message of saving the biosphere, in my opinion. I don't see what
> is gained by throwing the baby out with the bathwater, not speaking of
> violence or oppression, but definitions of gender and lineage that are
> accepted or sacred to some groups. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the
> message there.
>
> Activism is an attempt to control the actions of other beings to please a
> few, which ironically seems to be the primary complaint against our
> mainstream society and governments. I guess it is all a matter of
> perspective, and whether you think anyone should have the right to control
> the actions of others, or under what circumstances. The kind of direct
> action that seems to be advocated by DGR has the potential to be violent,
> and destructive of the property and works of others. This certainly 
> doesn't
> seem to be an evolved, egalitarian response to the depredations of a
> destructive industrial culture - destroy in kind, act as the chosen 2% who
> know what is best for all the sheep?
>
> Permaculture is a systems approach to design based on natural systems that
> endure, and we are designing a better civilization already. It may
> sometimes seen that we are running out of time, but that is a short view
> and a fatalistic one. I think most of us has a feel for what behaviors are
> sustainable or regenerative versus degenerative and destructive, but none
> of us can tell the future. We do what is in front of us, what feels right,
> and sometimes that may be contrary to zoning ordinances or other 
> meddlesome
> government regulations. I just can't see my way to blowing shit up, when I
> don't have the will of the people behind me. The good news about
> unsustainable behavior is that it can't last forever. Every time I opt out
> of consumer behavior, waste, and reach out to my family and community, I 
> am
> starving the beast and showing a better way. I feel permaculture is
> working, and our mother will recover from our excesses in her own time. If
> we watch with the patience of trees, we can see it unfolding.
>
> Thanks for sharing that, I really appreciate the food for thought.
>
> -Chris
> On Jul 1, 2013 8:09 PM, "Lawrence London" <lfljvenaura@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:51 PM,  <kelda@riseup.net> wrote:
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > So the permaculture news from Tacoma, WA is that a lot of us have been
> > > reading the book Deep Green Resistance and highly recommend that other
> > > permaculturists do so. The authors specifically critique permaculture,
> > and
> > > (though I'd love to sit down with Lierre Keith over a cup of tea to 
> > > argue
> > > some specifics) I think they bring up some really good points about how
> > > the Permaculture movement could better serve a true culture of
> > resistance.
> > > Ie, how it ISN'T direct action against what is destroying the planet, 
> > > but
> > > could be.
> >
> >
> > How  about Deep Green Cohesion and bonding for global permaculture
> > community
> > action toward positive goals that serve to help people survive. Who
> > has time to worry about
> > how to join and contribute toward a resistance movement when one's
> > basic needs have to be met: food, shelter, medical, safety and
> > security, education and free time spent in personal pursuits and
> > immersion in Nature, walk in woods, watch sunset, fish, garden,
> > meditate. Personally I endorse any movement that encourages avoidance
> > of and alternatives to (meditate, garden, code websites, cook, etc.)
> > alcohol, drugs and tobacco (none of those three ever, the human body
> > was not meant to assimilate such things, ignore all excuses to the
> > contrary.
> >
> > On the other hand the three ethics of permaculture seem to indicate
> > that a Green Resistance would be a natural thing for permaculturists
> > to become involved with. If we don't then who will?
> >
> >
> >
> > > How has this changed things for me? Instead of being under the illusion
> > > that my permaculture demonstration projects (or my bike-riding, or my
> > > shorter showers) will cause any big change as fast as we need it, I'm
> > > thinking more now of how to create garden networks that can actually
> > serve
> > > as a totally alternate food systems. Inspiring hope and love for planet
> > > are nice and all, but we need different physical structures fast.
> >
> > How do you want to create those networks, Kelda? What do you want to
> > accomplish?
> >
> > I could create a network structure online if people would use it.
> >
> > This is something already in place and I am a member of it, Durham
> > Locally Grown.
> > LocallyGrown.Net -- Small Farms Making a Difference
> > http://locallygrown.net/
> >
> > I have suggested creating a national, product and services,
> > production, marketing and distribution network
> > comprised of the smallest conceivable nodes making up a national
> > aggregate. LocallyGrown and Craigslist are similar.
> > My network would have more functions and ultimately provide the USA
> > with an alternative marketplace for goods and services, barter, sell,
> > trade,
> > all consistent with existing local, state and federal tax law and all
> > other regulations.
> >
> > LL
> >
> > > Also, in the most recent permaculture course I taught, I for the first
> > > time said in lecture about Ethics and specifically Water topics "So 
> > > don't
> > > tell me any specifics, but if you can Care for the Earth by blowing up 
> > > a
> > > dam than by all means do so". At which of course the class laughed and
> > > tangentalized into how best to care for salmon runs/siltation until I
> > > brought them back to the topic at hand.
> > >
> > > Anyway. Deep Green Resistance. Read the book! It's not for everyone in
> > the
> > > permaculture movement, but it's very much for a lot of us. I look 
> > > forward
> > > to some great conversation about it with permies in the future.
> >
> > I hope so. Onward.
> > >
> > > Kelda
> >
> > LL
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