permaculture

[Keith Morris <earthsurfing@yahoo.com>]

"Like"!

I think we need a better forum for these conversations that is more easily 
seen by people beyond this email list...

Is it the 'Northeastern Permaculture Social Network'?   
(http://northeastpc.ning.com) 

alot of the permacorps and 'organizers retreat' notes have been housed 
there...

I'm sorry that I haven't been able to contribute to the conversation much, as 
I'm really trying to minimize my time on the computer this time of year, but 
its easy enough to read it all on my phone...

I'm been verbally recording some thoughts and hope to be able to sit down and 
type them out soon...

Thanks, all- these are the types of conversations I started this list for...

Best,
Keith 
 

________________________________
Keith Morris 
Prospect Rock Permaculture 
Design and Education for Ecological Culture
[www.ProspectRock.org]
P.O. Box 426  
Jeffersonville, VT 05464 
Keith@ProspectRock.org
(802) 734-1129

"If we do not do the impossible, we shall be faced with the unthinkable."
Murray Bookchin (1921-2006) 



________________________________
 From: kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@openpermaculture.org>; 
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org; NE PC Listserv 
<northeasternpermaculture@lists.riseup.net> 
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [northeasternpermaculture] "What Permaculture Isn't" is bad for 
permaculture
 





Toby's piece is brilliant, from his framing, and so is Rafter's.    and as 
they both point out, as well as dave and all, it is all about the framing.  
hell, i agree with everyone after reading.

I don't want to waste folks time with something redundant, but here it is 
anyway:, redundancy and all

In a lot of "progressive" circles these days we see a lot people recognizing 
the depth of the problems, and coming up with different solutions and  
framing  depending on their paradigms: the Slow Monry and Social investment 
folks see it all thru a lens of investment, capital, and return while working 
for this "triple bottom line" or whatever they call it..  what they do not 
essentially question is Capitalism itself, so they can only get so far in 
solutions.  This is a huge problem that goes beyond "enlightened" capital, 
and infects everything, even most of the PC world.

Dave raises the question of how much does our own perspective shift as we try 
to "infiltrate" institutions that embody, within their very "core" lets say, 
degenerative principles. The privilege making/breaking world of for-profit 
institutional education is one arena that Dave questions, but it is in most 
of our institutions: corporations, military, political parties etc. The 
corruption is deep, and seemingly intransigent.

Is it possible that people can engage with corporations, or the military, or 
political parties and "shift" these institutions in some way that moves us in 
the direction of "meeting human needs while increasing ecosystem health"? 
Well, maybe....but i think the most practical and simple answer is  No.  The 
best we can do is negotiate for little less destruction, a little less bad 
behavior.  This is a simple practical observation, not a judgement (tho my 
instinct also is we shouldn't negotiate with terrorists)  This is esentially 
the story of the Liberal movement which is probably as doomed as Capitalism 
itself.

What is admirable, and clarifying i think for most  (or some anyway) of the 
Left movements in the world is that they attempt to undertake to face our 
problems, and come up with solutions, but aren't afraid to get all "negative" 
They aren't afraid to say "no means no" They aren't afraid of conflict as 
they see quite clearly that we are already in a global conflict. The war has 
been raging for some time now, and is only getting "hotter"

PC is carrying alot of "liberal" tendencies because it has a lot of 
privileged folks involved in it.   This is what it is and isn't therefore a 
problem necessarily, however it is worth acknowledging.  Privilege has some 
ingrained habits and tendencies to want to preserve privilege. Poverty 
however has no such barriers, so poor and oppressed people are always at the 
core of revolutionary tendencies.

In all of our work we simply need to be mindful of the question : are we 
really moving things in a regenerative direction, or are we only aspiring to 
slow the destruction? are we negotiating for a few scraps of privilege with 
illegitimate slave holding institutions, or are we quite rightly 
deligitimizing and  effectively countering their power and violent authority?

I think both rafter and toby are clearly asking these deeper questions in 
their work  so aren't really that far apart.  good writers too.

xo
kevin



On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:31 PM, rafter sass ferguson 
<liberationecology@gmail.com> wrote:

The Convenience and Poverty of Simple Definitions
>- responding to Toby
>
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>
>Rafter Sass Ferguson, MS
>PhD Candidate | Crop Sciences Department
>University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign
>liberationecology.org
>518 567 7407
>From toby@patternliteracy.com  Thu Jun 20 13:33:38 2013
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] [northeasternpermaculture] "What Permaculture
        Isn't" is bad for permaculture
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Real quick: (I'm not normally on the NE PC list, but this got cc'd to me) 

I don't think that teaching permaculture in "corrupt" institutions like 
corporations, for-profit mainstream schools, and the armed forces will change 
those institutions. Late-succession institutions like those evolve to 
preserve the institution above all else. But teaching within them can reach 
the individuals working in them, and persuade those people to leave them or 
stop giving power to them. I've seen it, over and over. Those institutions 
are made of people who serve them; turn the people, and not only do the 
institutions become less powerful and damaging, but the people in them learn 
there is an alternative to them. Permaculture is good at that.

Kevin, thanks for the praise! 

(I guess a paragraph is "real quick" for me!)

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:55 AM, Keith Morris wrote:

> "Like"!
> 
> I think we need a better forum for these conversations that is more easily 
> seen by people beyond this email list...
> 
> Is it the 'Northeastern Permaculture Social Network'?   
> (http://northeastpc.ning.com) 
> 
> alot of the permacorps and 'organizers retreat' notes have been housed 
> there...
> 
> I'm sorry that I haven't been able to contribute to the conversation much, 
> as I'm really trying to minimize my time on the computer this time of year, 
> but its easy enough to read it all on my phone...
> 
> I'm been verbally recording some thoughts and hope to be able to sit down 
> and type them out soon...
> 
> Thanks, all- these are the types of conversations I started this list for...
> 
> Best,
> Keith 
>  
> 
> ________________________________
> Keith Morris 
> Prospect Rock Permaculture 
> Design and Education for Ecological Culture
> [www.ProspectRock.org]
> P.O. Box 426  
> Jeffersonville, VT 05464 
> Keith@ProspectRock.org
> (802) 734-1129
> 
> "If we do not do the impossible, we shall be faced with the unthinkable."
> Murray Bookchin (1921-2006) 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@openpermaculture.org>; 
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org; NE PC Listserv 
> <northeasternpermaculture@lists.riseup.net> 
> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 10:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [northeasternpermaculture] "What Permaculture Isn't" is bad 
> for permaculture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toby's piece is brilliant, from his framing, and so is Rafter's.    and as 
> they both point out, as well as dave and all, it is all about the framing.  
> hell, i agree with everyone after reading.
> 
> I don't want to waste folks time with something redundant, but here it is 
> anyway:, redundancy and all
> 
> In a lot of "progressive" circles these days we see a lot people 
> recognizing the depth of the problems, and coming up with different 
> solutions and  framing  depending on their paradigms: the Slow Monry and 
> Social investment folks see it all thru a lens of investment, capital, and 
> return while working for this "triple bottom line" or whatever they call 
> it..  what they do not essentially question is Capitalism itself, so they 
> can only get so far in solutions.  This is a huge problem that goes beyond 
> "enlightened" capital, and infects everything, even most of the PC world.
> 
> Dave raises the question of how much does our own perspective shift as we 
> try to "infiltrate" institutions that embody, within their very "core" lets 
> say, degenerative principles. The privilege making/breaking world of 
> for-profit institutional education is one arena that Dave questions, but it 
> is in most of our institutions: corporations, military, political parties 
> etc. The corruption is deep, and seemingly intransigent.
> 
> Is it possible that people can engage with corporations, or the military, 
> or political parties and "shift" these institutions in some way that moves 
> us in the direction of "meeting human needs while increasing ecosystem 
> health"? Well, maybe....but i think the most practical and simple answer is 
>  No.  The best we can do is negotiate for little less destruction, a little 
> less bad behavior.  This is a simple practical observation, not a judgement 
> (tho my instinct also is we shouldn't negotiate with terrorists)  This is 
> esentially the story of the Liberal movement which is probably as doomed as 
> Capitalism itself.
> 
> What is admirable, and clarifying i think for most  (or some anyway) of the 
> Left movements in the world is that they attempt to undertake to face our 
> problems, and come up with solutions, but aren't afraid to get all 
> "negative" They aren't afraid to say "no means no" They aren't afraid of 
> conflict as they see quite clearly that we are already in a global 
> conflict. The war has been raging for some time now, and is only getting 
> "hotter"
> 
> PC is carrying alot of "liberal" tendencies because it has a lot of 
> privileged folks involved in it.   This is what it is and isn't therefore a 
> problem necessarily, however it is worth acknowledging.  Privilege has some 
> ingrained habits and tendencies to want to preserve privilege. Poverty 
> however has no such barriers, so poor and oppressed people are always at 
> the core of revolutionary tendencies.
> 
> In all of our work we simply need to be mindful of the question : are we 
> really moving things in a regenerative direction, or are we only aspiring 
> to slow the destruction? are we negotiating for a few scraps of privilege 
> with illegitimate slave holding institutions, or are we quite rightly 
> deligitimizing and  effectively countering their power and violent 
> authority?
> 
> I think both rafter and toby are clearly asking these deeper questions in 
> their work  so aren't really that far apart.  good writers too.
> 
> xo
> kevin
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:31 PM, rafter sass ferguson 
> <liberationecology@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The Convenience and Poverty of Simple Definitions
>> - responding to Toby
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> Rafter Sass Ferguson, MS
>> PhD Candidate | Crop Sciences Department
>> University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign
>> liberationecology.org
>> 518 567 7407
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