permaculture

[Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>]

On 03/05/2013 12:51 AM, loren luyendyk wrote:
> Douglas,
>
> Are you familiar with the work of your fellow Méxicano Eugenio Gras and Mas 
> Humus (http://www.mashumus.com/)?

No, but he was educated here in Guadalajara and build ecological houses 
here before focusing his attention on agriculture, professionally.  If I 
ask around I may be able to locate him, but his shift in focus (along 
with his use of chromatography), apparently comes the other two members 
of COAS (Consejeros en Agricultura Sostenible y Permacultura), Jairo 
Restrepo and Sebastiao Piñedo, who wrote the book on chromatography.
Consejeros en Agricultura Sostenible Y Permacultura
http://www.emagister.com.mx/consejeros_agricultura_sostenible_permacultura-centrodetalles-24657.htm 
<http://www.emagister.com.mx/consejeros_agricultura_sostenible_permacultura-centrodetalles-24657.htm?pfichas=4799&UTM=copypaste>
Consejeros en Agricultura Sostenible Y Permacultura
http://www.emagister.com.mx/consejeros_agricultura_sostenible_permacultura-centrodetalles-24657.htm 
<http://www.emagister.com.mx/consejeros_agricultura_sostenible_permacultura-centrodetalles-24657.htm?pfichas=4799&UTM=copypaste>
Consejeros en Agricultura Sostenible Y Permacultura
http://www.emagister.com.mx/consejeros_agricultura_sostenible_permacultura-centrodetalles-24657.htm 
<http://www.emagister.com.mx/consejeros_agricultura_sostenible_permacultura-centrodetalles-24657.htm?pfichas=4799&UTM=copypaste>

> I have not experienced their work personally but they have been doing 
> chromatography measurements of the health of soils and produce with pretty 
> simple equipment, from what I hear.  MasHumus is also promoting the use and 
> production of biofertilizers which are possibly the only real solution to 
> medium-large scale food
> production nutrient needs- beyond composting.
>
> I think it is pretty important if we are considering creating standards and 
> tests for organic and sustainable agriculture,

I agree. We also hope to be able to demonstrate exactly how soil 
organisms perform the labors they perform, as well as the fact that 
chemical agriculture disrupts those abilities, thereby locking 
unsuspecting farmers into a permanent state of dependency that wouldn't 
be necessary if soil microorganisms (who work for free) were allowed to 
become established and do their thing.

THATS why we need to know which substances they produce, the activity of 
each substance and the environmental conditions required for their 
production.  Because while you, I and others here know that the two 
types of agriculture are incompatible, most folks haven't experienced 
the fundamental difference and that's why it all has to be spelled out, 
in order to close the door permanently on what constitutes a big 
mistake. The same thing happened with DDT and Tobacco. The ghouls hung 
in there as long as they could.

> our equipment and methods (ideally) should be easily reproducible and accessible- 
> "campesino" style- available to common farmers beyond the "first" world of 
> scanning electron microscopes and even sterile petri dishes, autoclaves, and incubators.

That is exactly right.  As things stand, most folks are left out in the 
cold, on the outside, looking in.

> With simple equipment and measurements you can increase the edge and get more 
> data because the farmers themselves are able to do the testing.  You may not 
> be able to quantify statistically the concentration of fungal hyphae per unit 
> area etc, but there can be very real qualitative measurements that still 
> provide good data- which at the end of the day is the important part becuase 
> we are trying to make a case for why we should support beyond 
> organic/permaculture style food production.

Yes, this is what it's all about. That is the real nature of the world 
we live in.

> If you are talking about measuring metabolic pathways another tool/metric 
> that I think is very useful is the refractometer (hand held) to measure Brix. 
>  Brix levels can indicate metabolic shifts in plant growth (at a certain 
> point the metabolic pathway changes and different chemicals/compositions are 
> produced in the plant).  This can indicate when food become nutritionally 
> dense (brix 12+).  See the work of the Weston A. Price Foundation regarding 
> nutrient density and brix.

Being unfamiliar with the Weston A. Price Foundation I googled on them 
and found some very mixed opinions, like:

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/debunking-diet-myths-weston-a-price-foundation-stupid-traditions.html 
<http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/debunking-diet-myths-weston-a-price-foundation-stupid-traditions.htmlyths-weston-a-price-foundation-stupid-traditions.html> 


http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/the-truth-about-the-weston-price-foundation.html

From Wikipedia:
"The foundation has been criticized by Joel Fuhrman 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Fuhrman> and the U.S. Food and Drug 
Administration 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Drug_Administration> (FDA) for 
"purveying misleading information" and "failing to update their 
recommendations in light of contradictory evidence".^[2] 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_A._Price_Foundation#cite_note-WSJ-2> ^[3] 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_A._Price_Foundation#cite_note-Fuhrman-3>"

and

" More than 50 years after Weston Price's death, food activists Sally 
Fallon and Mary G. Enig founded the Weston A. Price Foundation in their 
words to "disseminate the research of nutrition pioneer Dr. Weston 
Price....Dr. Price's research demonstrated that humans achieve perfect 
physical form and perfect health generation after generation only when 
they consume nutrient-dense whole foods and the vital fat-soluble 
activators found exclusively in animal fats.""

and lastly,

http://www.westonaprice.org/basics/dietary-guidelines

Of the 20 items listed I am strongly opposed th half of the first 10 and 
consider the second 10 irrelevant.

So I'm not subscribing to that one, but thanks anyway.


> Annabelle Ford from UC Santa Barbara has studied the composition/biology of 
> mayan food forests which is possibly the most roots example of the contrast 
> between monocultural managed vs. polycultural wild food systems.  I am not 
> sure how into the meatbolic pathways of the plants she got, more looking at 
> the forest as a natural component of their culture, and the fallacy that the 
> Mayans lived in a cleared space free of trees in the scorching central 
> american sun... much like the tourists see at the better known archaeological 
> sites that were cleared of the forest- which actually contained all the food 
> and medicine that the Mayans deliberately cultivated.

That one I can go with, theoretically. But I couldn't find anything on 
her or her work on the ucsb.edu website.

In any case, I consider most natural trees to be better company than 
most people (and they do a lot less harm - the planet would be much 
better off with a lot more trees and far fewer humans) and as stated 
previously, the fruit of naturally occurring (albeit sometimes selected) 
fruit trees constitutes the principle source of my nutritional needs),

Douglas

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> Loren Luyendyk
> 805-452-8249
> Permaculture Design and Education
> ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
> www.sborganics.com
> www.globalpermaculture.com
> www.surferswithoutborders.com
>
>
> > From: alia@dietrick.org
> > Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 21:56:58 -0800
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] TESTS & EQUIPMENT required for a functional 
> > SUSTAINABLE AG LAB?
> >
> > A spectrophotometer can be used for measuring stuff like inorganic N and P.
> > You would probably also be interested in a method of measuring potentially
> > mineralizable nitrogen, the N bound up in organic matter than can be
> > released by microbe activity. This quick summary of methods might be a good
> > starting point:
> > http://isnap.oregonstate.edu/WERA_103/2003_proccedings/p28%20Sullivan%20-%20Mineralizable%20N.pdf
> > I've used the anaerobic incubation method -- after the incubation, you'd
> > analyze it with the spectrophotometer just like for the inorganic N. Not
> > sure what equipment you'd need for the other methods mentioned.
> >
> > With the soil microorganisms, it depends on how precisely you want to
> > categorize what's there. On the one hand, you can use a microscope to look
> > at the broad groups of organisms (Elaine Ingham's method). This would
> > probably be more practical. You can also use microscopy to quantify
> > mycorrhizal colonization (there's a vinegar and ink method for staining I
> > heard about recently, cheaper and less cancer than the old standard for
> > staining roots). I think you might need two different types of microscopes,
> > though. On the other hand, genetic sequencing is getting cheaper and
> > cheaper and can give you a lot of interesting detailed information. But, if
> > you're partnered with a university, they probably have some of that
> > equipment. I think for identification of the substances the microorganisms
> > are creating, you'd use gas chromatograph-mass spectrometry (GC-MS).
> >
> > Alia
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On 03/03/2013 03:25 PM, Chris Carnevale wrote:
> > > > Hi Douglas,
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure about what kind of equipment you would need, but certainly
> > > > soil testing would be important.
> > > Particularly to quantify the presence of nutritional elements and the
> > > microorganisms that constitute the soil food web.
> > >
> > > I would also like to be able to identify the substances being created by
> > > those organisms, the activity of each substance and define the
> > > conditions required for the production of same.