permaculture

[Daniel Jager <dfjager@yahoo.com>]

True, disturbance is a natural process. Decay or death is just as natural as 
growth and life.

Except for the fact that Life and Growth is hard to establish. It takes will, 
striving, work, the gathering of energy against opposing pressures. It short; 
it happens at great cost of energy; it is endothermic.
Dissolution into death is a whole lot easier. It is a process where the 
effort is released, locked-up energy is liberated. It is an exothermic 
process.


Picture the sand castle on the beach: It takes hours to build, but the 
incoming tide tears it down in seconds.

Another example: It takes years for a human child to become a useful adult 
(if ever), but it takes 1 bullet a fraction of second to bring it to an end.

we do NOT need to help decay along any faster than what is natural. Any 
interference into this will expedite it beyond certain limits and often 
irrevocably ruin an area ecologically for hundreds of years.


I see in this meddling with Nature's decay processes not wisdom or knowledge, 
but fear and lack of ability to adapt and change.

In my opinion: it is not our place to change the world, but through our 
experiences in living be changed ourselves.

Daniel


From: Neil Bertrando <neilbertrando@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] types of woods and their uses

to add a little balance to the conversation,

disturbance is a natural process and a prerequisite for growth.

lack of disturbance leads to excessive buildup of energy which is often
catastrophic when released.

as conscious participants in ecology, one of our roles is to manage
disturbance for the benefit of the whole system.

taking trees down can be as beneficial as planting them.

some American Indian Tribes did this with fire, now we can use fire, steel,
grazing, and other tools in our tool kit.

patchy landscape mosaics are often more productive than huge areas of
forest or prairie (edgey landscapes), and both have values in the whole

duration, frequency and intensity (i.e. timing and magnitude) are factors
that regulate the effects of a disturbance.  also check out the brittleness
scale and related effects of disturbance a la Holistic Management.

best of luck with your decisions, actions, and response to feedback

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Frances and David <fdnokes@hotmail.com>wrote:

> This actually happened in our neighbourhood.
> A lot was close to cleared!  And then, in a freakish storm, so many other
> trees came down in a neighbouring lot
> It took a lot of talking to try and get the town bureaucrats to understand
> this connection (their response was to want to cut down a lot more trees in
> pubic space in order to prevent this problem rather than acknowledging that
> by allowing a huge clearing on a particular lot, the damage to the trees
> infrastructure occurred. Apparently, the underground infrastructure is key
> as is the trees natural sense of which trees are on the outside and the
> types of relative holding power invested therein.  As in, the tree on the
> outside gets the stronger resistance to the wind.
> Fran
> P.S. One of the  trees in our yard in question is a questionable choice
> originally, given its proximity to the house.   Yet the house stands
> solidly
> and the birds have not complained either...
> P.P.S. Oh, it is a hard one!  This culling of trees. Took me a long time as
> a librarian, too, to face up to the task of culling of books, and yet, it
> does offer vitality to what remains, allowing what still stands to shine
> forth more brightly...   I have found, in my pruning experience, that the
> plants actually value the attention... Perhaps this evolution is meant to
> happen in harmony, plant and animals with people, and not alone.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John D'hondt
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 3:53 PM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] types of woods and their uses
>
>
> Very good advice Bob. Also, I'd be carefull what I did after the first
> year.
> Where we live in Ireland taking one tree down could bring all the rest down
> around our ears with the first good storm.
> John
>
> > "Wait one year."  Each of those trees may represent years of growth and
> is
> > an
> > asset.  You may eventually decide to remove some of them, but I think it
> > would
> > be helpful if you waited a full year and experienced the four seasons
> with
> > your
> > present situation before deciding anything so radical as removing trees.
> >
> > The biggest mistake, imho, that most people make with land is moving too
> > quickly.  "Long and thoughtful observation" is always the first step in
> > permaculture design.  That's why a permaculture wisdom saying is "Wait
> One
> > Year".
> >
> > Bob Waldrop
> > http://www.ipermie.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Frances and David <fdnokes@hotmail.com>
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Wed, January 30, 2013 1:43:10 PM
> > Subject: [permaculture] types of woods and their uses
> >
> > It looks as if we are going to stay settled for now...  And act as if we
> > own the
> > place.  By that I mean that we would begin to maximize the space for
> > growing.
> > And do some serious pruning and removal of trees on our property that are
> > ?ready
> > to go? and/or seriously block the sun from the yard as conscience
> permits.
> > What I am contemplating is that this is a golden opportunity to learn
> more
> > about
> > trees? woods and what they work well for...
> > Which ones are good for huglekultur (sp?), composting, fungi/rot barrier,
> > carving into eating implements, utensils, buttons, etc. (My mind is a
> > little
> > frozen at the moment)
> >
> > Would anyone have any idea of such a database of information?
> > Just thought I?d start by asking this highly resourceful group of people.
> > Other than that, I can start by looking up the individual species as well
> > as
> > seeing what resources I can locate on my topic!
> > There is also a wood turner in our area that I intend to look up when we
> > are
> > back home, and he would also likely have something to say on the matter.
> >
> > Cheers!
> > Frances
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >
>

>From neilbertrando@gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 10:34:37 2013
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I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Daniel,

growth and decay are cycles and need to be in balance.

are we considering the health of a forest or a single tree?

a lack of disturbance in many types of forest leads to an excessive storage
of energy that when liberated is cataclysmic and leaves the ecosystem in a
less patchy state that is closer to the bare ground stage of succession
potentially reorganizing into a different state completely

pulsed, smaller releases through disturbance can actually invigorate growth
and increase energy flow capability and species diversity, and are
necessary to avoid the cataclysmic events.  Thus the energy released can be
harvested by the growing life systems rather than exported.

composting is meddling with cycles of life and decay, otherwise I would
just toss my food scraps around randomly which could lead to issues with
animals such as rats, raccoons, etc. I think that to not manage this cycle
is irresponsible.

strategic actions that manage these cycles is one method of 'accelerating
succession and evolution'

not all disturbance is equal and not all climates and ecosystems respond in
the same manner to disturbance or rest. one of the powerful insights of
Allan Savory.

because to not participate in the disturbance regime (or to try to prevent
it from happening) is a management decision to actively rest the system, I
think it is also important to understand the impacts of rest on the
specific climate and system being managed.  As participants in the ecology,
I think we have a much more complex role than 'hands-off'.  We must also be
able to meet human needs.

I am not advocating that we proceed recklessly and thrash the environment,
I simply want to point out that we are managing disturbance regimes with
our decisions even when we 'conserve' everything.  At this point, I prefer
to focus on tools and strategies that lead to regeneration and resilience
rather than conservation.

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Daniel Jager <dfjager@yahoo.com> wrote:

> True, disturbance is a natural process. Decay or death is just as natural
> as growth and life.
>
> Except for the fact that Life and Growth is hard to establish. It takes
> will, striving, work, the gathering of energy against opposing pressures.
> It short; it happens at great cost of energy; it is endothermic.
> Dissolution into death is a whole lot easier. It is a process where the
> effort is released, locked-up energy is liberated. It is an exothermic
> process.
>
>
> Picture the sand castle on the beach: It takes hours to build, but the
> incoming tide tears it down in seconds.
>
> Another example: It takes years for a human child to become a useful adult
> (if ever), but it takes 1 bullet a fraction of second to bring it to an end.
>
> we do NOT need to help decay along any faster than what is natural. Any
> interference into this will expedite it beyond certain limits and often
> irrevocably ruin an area ecologically for hundreds of years.
>
>
> I see in this meddling with Nature's decay processes not wisdom or
> knowledge, but fear and lack of ability to adapt and change.
>
> In my opinion: it is not our place to change the world, but through our
> experiences in living be changed ourselves.
>
> Daniel
>
>
> From: Neil Bertrando <neilbertrando@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] types of woods and their uses
>
> to add a little balance to the conversation,
>
> disturbance is a natural process and a prerequisite for growth.
>
> lack of disturbance leads to excessive buildup of energy which is often
> catastrophic when released.
>
> as conscious participants in ecology, one of our roles is to manage
> disturbance for the benefit of the whole system.
>
> taking trees down can be as beneficial as planting them.
>
> some American Indian Tribes did this with fire, now we can use fire, steel,
> grazing, and other tools in our tool kit.
>
> patchy landscape mosaics are often more productive than huge areas of
> forest or prairie (edgey landscapes), and both have values in the whole
>
> duration, frequency and intensity (i.e. timing and magnitude) are factors
> that regulate the effects of a disturbance.  also check out the brittleness
> scale and related effects of disturbance a la Holistic Management.
>
> best of luck with your decisions, actions, and response to feedback
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Frances and David <fdnokes@hotmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > This actually happened in our neighbourhood.
> > A lot was close to cleared!  And then, in a freakish storm, so many other
> > trees came down in a neighbouring lot
> > It took a lot of talking to try and get the town bureaucrats to
> understand
> > this connection (their response was to want to cut down a lot more trees
> in
> > pubic space in order to prevent this problem rather than acknowledging
> that
> > by allowing a huge clearing on a particular lot, the damage to the trees
> > infrastructure occurred. Apparently, the underground infrastructure is
> key
> > as is the trees natural sense of which trees are on the outside and the
> > types of relative holding power invested therein.  As in, the tree on the
> > outside gets the stronger resistance to the wind.
> > Fran
> > P.S. One of the  trees in our yard in question is a questionable choice
> > originally, given its proximity to the house.   Yet the house stands
> > solidly
> > and the birds have not complained either...
> > P.P.S. Oh, it is a hard one!  This culling of trees. Took me a long time
> as
> > a librarian, too, to face up to the task of culling of books, and yet, it
> > does offer vitality to what remains, allowing what still stands to shine
> > forth more brightly...   I have found, in my pruning experience, that the
> > plants actually value the attention... Perhaps this evolution is meant to
> > happen in harmony, plant and animals with people, and not alone.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John D'hondt
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 3:53 PM
> > To: permaculture
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] types of woods and their uses
> >
> >
> > Very good advice Bob. Also, I'd be carefull what I did after the first
> > year.
> > Where we live in Ireland taking one tree down could bring all the rest
> down
> > around our ears with the first good storm.
> > John
> >
> > > "Wait one year."  Each of those trees may represent years of growth and
> > is
> > > an
> > > asset.  You may eventually decide to remove some of them, but I think
> it
> > > would
> > > be helpful if you waited a full year and experienced the four seasons
> > with
> > > your
> > > present situation before deciding anything so radical as removing
> trees.
> > >
> > > The biggest mistake, imho, that most people make with land is moving
> too
> > > quickly.  "Long and thoughtful observation" is always the first step in
> > > permaculture design.  That's why a permaculture wisdom saying is "Wait
> > One
> > > Year".
> > >
> > > Bob Waldrop
> > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Frances and David <fdnokes@hotmail.com>
> > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Sent: Wed, January 30, 2013 1:43:10 PM
> > > Subject: [permaculture] types of woods and their uses
> > >
> > > It looks as if we are going to stay settled for now...  And act as if
> we
> > > own the
> > > place.  By that I mean that we would begin to maximize the space for
> > > growing.
> > > And do some serious pruning and removal of trees on our property that
> are
> > > ?ready
> > > to go? and/or seriously block the sun from the yard as conscience
> > permits.
> > > What I am contemplating is that this is a golden opportunity to learn
> > more
> > > about
> > > trees? woods and what they work well for...
> > > Which ones are good for huglekultur (sp?), composting, fungi/rot
> barrier,
> > > carving into eating implements, utensils, buttons, etc. (My mind is a
> > > little
> > > frozen at the moment)
> > >
> > > Would anyone have any idea of such a database of information?
> > > Just thought I?d start by asking this highly resourceful group of
> people.
> > > Other than that, I can start by looking up the individual species as
> well
> > > as
> > > seeing what resources I can locate on my topic!
> > > There is also a wood turner in our area that I intend to look up when
> we
> > > are
> > > back home, and he would also likely have something to say on the
> matter.
> > >
> > > Cheers!
> > > Frances
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>