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- From: David Glober <david.glober@yahoo.com>
- To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: [permaculture] "how to spot farms with a future"
- Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 02:00:26 -0800 (PST)
"What makes a farm sustainable and successful? And what special qualities and
skills are needed for someone to become a successful farmer? Rebecca
Thistlethwaite addresses these and other crucial questions in this
uniquely important book, which is a must-read for anyone who aspires to
get into farming, or who wants to make their farm business more dynamic,
profitable, and, above all, sustainable. Over an entire year, the
author and her husband-experienced farmers themselves-took a sabbatical
and traveled the length and breadth of the United States to live and
work alongside some of the nation's most innovative farmers. Along the
way they learned about best practices, and a whole lot about what
doesn't work.Farms with a Future shares this collective wisdom in an
inspirational yet practical manner; it will help beginners avoid
many of the common mistakes that first-time farmers make. Just as
importantly, it discusses positive ideas that can help make any farm
enterprise vibrant and financially profitable. Profiles of more than a
dozen representative farms help round out the invaluable information and
encourage farmers to embrace their inner entrepreneur. Younger growers, in
particular, will benefit by learning about 'the right stuff' from
both their peers and longtime experts.This book provides a useful
reference for beginning and experienced farmers alike. While many other
books address agricultural production, there are very few that talk
about business management for long-term sustainability. Farms with a Future
offers an approachable, colorful take on building a triple-bottom-line
farming business."
http://www.powells.com/biblio/61-9781603584388-0?&PID=25450
"As she sees it, the book is a 'practical, accessible guide that doesn’t
sugarcoat the challenges of farming, but gives people some good ideas.'
It’s chock full of concrete suggestions based on Thistlethwaite’s year
of research and observation, the kind of book you write precisely
because you need just such a guide yourself but can’t find it anywhere.
And it will probably help a lot of young farmers. It might also dissuade some
from jumping headfirst into a business that is not for the faint
of heart — but Thistlethwaite is fine with that."
http://grist.org/food/new-agtivist-rebecca-thistlethwaite-knows-how-to-spot-farms-with-a-future/
"Farms with a Future should be handed out to every budding
young farmer in America. Thistlethwaite guides us through the daunting
process of creating a viable small farm by sharing hard-earned lessons
of her own, and from experienced farmers she met while researching this
book. Indispensable!"--Novella Carpenter, author of Farm City: The Education
of an Urban Farmer
http://www.amazon.com/Farms-Future-Creating-Sustainable-Business/dp/1603584382/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356947783&sr=8-1&keywords=Farms+with+a+Future
David Glober ~ San Francisco
Permaculture Design Cert Grad
Volunteer, 18th and Rhode Island Permaculture Garden
david.glober@yahoo.com
---
>From cory8570@yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 09:45:01 2012
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Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 06:44:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem
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LOL, I think I interpreted what Paul said completely differently than others
did. To clarify, I believe that permaculture ethics are essential to good
design. I think that most people who are practicing permaculture have a
strong sense of those ethics but not everybody has a full understanding of
how they work in design mode, or how to integrate them with the principles. I
agree with Toby that the ethics and principles are essential to what makes
permaculture valuable and that it is important to aim the surplus using
design principles (as in conscious design of waterways in the system). I've
seen a lot of people (including me, until I was humbled with how much I
didn't know by actually installing some systems) get really enthusiastic
about permaculture and talk about it like they understand it, before they do.
That seems to be more common than not. I'm not sure that does more harm than
good though. If that enthusiasm get others people to look, is that
bad? �I converted hundreds and maybe thousands of people with my ignorant
enthusiasm, who are now living more ethical lives and have some clue what
that actually means. Because of my ignorant enthusiasm, these people now know
about what some of the veterans in permaculture have accomplished and that
they exist. I doubt they ever would have found out but for my big mouth.
I've had more judgment aimed at me from my fellow permies for not doing
something or other they think is important, or doing something they think I
shouldn't and I've seen that done to many others too. I thought that was what
Paul was talking about. �To me, that quick to judge characteristic shows some
misunderstanding of ethics, design, principles, human nature, sequence, human
imperfection, and probably a lot of other things. We are all here trying. I
am interested in spending my trying time finding ways to work together more
effectively to tap into as much energy as possible so that we can use it as
ethically as possible, therefore my diabolical scheme to control one billion
dollars, bwa ha ha. :-)
�
Koreen Brennan
www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
________________________________
From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem
It looks like you are commenting to yourself, but I'll assume you are
commenting to me.
> I just realized that you may be the exception to my rule of "absolute power
> corrupts absolutely";
I always like to draw a ling through "corrupts absolutely" and write
in "is kinda neat!" :)
> perhaps you are using your billions to save the earth
Well, I don't have billions.� I am struggling to buy land.
> and its inhabitants, but leaving that aside.� I would love it if you could
> give me one example of a billionaire who is using their "captured, channeled
> and stored" billions to create social justice for all and healing the planet
> while also hanging on to a billion or two for a rainy day.
Well, I don't know much about billionaires - not really my area of
study.� I did look up that there are currently 1200 billionaires.
Wacky.
When I think of rich people and the 1%, I like to think about John
Stewart.� I have no idea how much money he has, but surely it is in
the hundreds of millions space.� And it seems like he is doing good
things.� I cannot condemn the 1% that contains John Stewart.
Further, when you consider the world, then the line for 1% is
somewhere around $24,000.� I am, therefore, part of the 1%.� And I
don't condemn me either.
Mostly, one of the things that I like about permaculture the most is
that the people tend to focus on building good things rather than
shaking their fist at bad guys.� And focusing on the whole 1% thing
seems to involve shaking a fist at some folks.
Am I a capitalist?� Hellifiknow.� I can't seem to even nail down what
that means anymore.� But I did recently figure out that I have given
away more free permaculture information than all other free
permaculture information combined.� Is there a word for that?� Is it
"capitalist"?� I've been going with "bonkers-about-permaculture" but
I'm open to other labels (for those that need labels).
--
Sign up for my daily-ish email, or my devious plots for world
domination:� http://www.richsoil.com/email.jsp
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>From cory8570@yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 09:49:53 2012
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Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 06:49:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem
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I agree that this is not ethical. It gives people a totally wrong idea of
what permaculture is. There is the whole scam way of doing things out there
that is all about what people can get away with, and has nothing whatever to
do with ethics. Even in that case, some people might walk away with the idea
and pursue it independantly, but I would prefer that scammers didn't use the
word permaculture to make money and exploit people!�
***
I recently encountered a Permaculture University in Latin America which had
no one involved who had studied Permaculture but they were teaching
Permaculture.� How does one ethically teach what they don't know? The short
answer is they don't!, leave out the "ethically" and it then becomes a
matter of good marketing strategy.� As it turns out that is exactly what it
was a scam to sell real estate to people drawn to the "word" Permaculture.
Is it ethical to use professional video productions to show how beautifully
Permaculture works in order to build ones reputation for consulting work and
design jobs even if the video and voice over are in large part fantasy?
Some would argue that if it gets big jobs out in the world then its fair
game.� I argue that any projects built out of integrity are equivalent to
the feet of clay story.
�
Koreen Brennan
www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
________________________________
From: Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
To: 'permaculture' <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem
Surely you can see, Paul that you have created a perfect example of your
proof!� You are talking about two totally different things design without
ethics and with ethics and they are going to be very different.
I recently encountered a Permaculture University in Latin America which had
no one involved who had studied Permaculture but they were teaching
Permaculture.� How does one ethically teach what they don't know? The short
answer is they don't!, leave out the "ethically" and it then becomes a
matter of good marketing strategy.� As it turns out that is exactly what it
was a scam to sell real estate to people drawn to the "word" Permaculture.
Is it ethical to use professional video productions to show how beautifully
Permaculture works in order to build ones reputation for consulting work and
design jobs even if the video and voice over are in large part fantasy?
Some would argue that if it gets big jobs out in the world then its fair
game.� I argue that any projects built out of integrity are equivalent to
the feet of clay story.
I wish that you had more examples of the "bad guys" being good and the "good
guys" being bad.� It is a powerful use of rhetoric but in my experience has
little base in reality.�
There are loads of examples of disastrous design failures and while most can
be marked up to inexperience, or a case of the alligator mouth and the coon
dog ass, it is still unethical to present yourself as knowledgeable when you
aren't.� Adding ethics after the fact just doesn't make it a good design or
"right as rain".
As for the billions "laying around" being just fine as long as you didn't do
any damage getting it, I guess I will take that as you being ironic - surely
you're not serious!?
�
"Another world is not only possible, she is on her way.
On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing."
~Arundhati Roy
-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of paul wheaton
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 2:01 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem
Yesterday we recorded a podcast review of Geoff Lawton's Introduction
to Permaculture DVD.� In the beginning was a bit about the ethics.
And I had to wonder:� where are there examples of people doing
permaculture, but because of the lack of ethics, things didn't turn
out.� Things were bad.� The person is still calling it permaculture,
but it is now awful due to the lack of ethics.
So then that situation can have "care of the earth; care of the
people; return of surplus to the first two" and everything becomes
right as rain.
I have yet to fathom even one realistic scenario.
I do see people using the three ethics (and mostly, twisted
variations) as a weapon to get other people to comply with ...
whatever.� But in those scenarios, my impression has been that the bad
guys are the ones screaming the ethics, while the decent folks are
being screamed at.
Granted, there are bad guys out there doing bad things.� And most of
the worst have never ever heard of permaculture.� And I feel like a
bit of ethics could help the situation.� But I doubt I will ever get
a chance to talk about ethics with them.
As for billionaires:� I guess I'm in a weird position where it doesn't
bother me that somebody has a billion dollars lying around.� What
bothers me is if a person got a billion dollars through unethical
behavior.� I usually think of John Stewart.� I doubt he has a billion
dollars - but he is far closer to a billion dollars than I am.� I
don't see him as a bad person.� I see that he did a cool thing and got
a lot of money for it.
I suppose there are many schools of thought around the permaculture
ethics.� And around the billionaires thing.� I suppose it is possible
that I am even the only person that is keen on permaculture that feels
this way on these two topics.� I am grateful for the opportunity to
express my position.
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>From cory8570@yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 09:59:01 2012
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Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 06:58:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem
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Scott, I agree that the vast majority of wealth that is held by the 1% was
made unethically. And the vast majority of it is not being used nearly as
ethically as it could be, even by those few billionaires who might actually
care.
What I was trying to say is that I think that if permaculture designers had
control of billions, that we could use design principles to use that energy
far, far more ethically than those who do control it. I hope my message is
more clear now. One thing I would do with that kind of money is buy up key
bioregions, headwaters, watersheds, mountaintops, so they couldn't be
exploited. And buy up mountaintops that had been strip mined and regenerate
them. And use the influence money buys to put some truly sane solutions in
front of key people in positions of influence that might actually do
something sane with the information. There are many, many things I think
could be done with large sums of money to get more truly regenerative
permaculture design implemented. The first thing I would do with that kind of
money is come to the most veteran and experienced permaculturists around and
get their input on things. I'm not a "capitalist" and I'm clear about what
that is, generally, in this culture - someone who uses other people's money
and energy to gain control of as much of it as possible for themselves, by
whatever means possible in far too many cases, including outright stealing
and destructionof people and the earth, for no good reason other than to
control it. That is the "game" of capitalism to a large degree. But there are
certainly other games one can play with money besides that one. Like, fix the
damage that has been done - something we are certainly in a better position
to do than the vast majority of people who control the wealth....
Koreen Brennan
www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
________________________________
From: Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
To: 'permaculture' <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem
Wow! Getting dismissed by two dyed in the wool free enterprise capitalists
in one night, what a thrill.
Anyone with a few billion, million, or hundred thousand "laying around" is
not following an ethical life purpose. Those sums are either from
extraction from the earth or underpaid labor which takes care of the first
two ethics. And the excess "laying around" is a pollutant in the sense it
is not doing its duty to benefit the earth and people.
I know there are always those who argue that what is done with the money is
what makes it ethical or not but first one has to deal with how one received
it. Look at Bill Gates who has built a name for himself as an A.I.D.s
warrior with his dividends from his investments in Monsanto. Or his
flogging GMO's in Africa with a non-profit he built with the help of the
Rockefeller brothers who robbed their oil billions from Latin America. It
is always good to ask the prior question before declaring that accumulated
wealth is ethically neutral.
Hopefully this is what the occupy movement is all about. There is not a 2%
without the 98% contribution of mindless labor. How do we learn to
distinguish prosperous from wealth. One talks about meeting ones needs
(including joy, health, meaningful work, community, etc) the other means
hoarding and is greed based, the outcome of a fearful avoidance of being
left out.
This is not about attacking "others of us for taking money in exchange for
the priceless value that Permaculture offers" but about having a hyper
inflated idea of what our worth is for carrying this knowledge around. I
don't give a fig if someone makes a living using Permaculture to arrive at
good design decisions for clients what I do have a problem with is when the
knowledge is flawed. There are a lot of unconscious Permaculture "snake
oil" salesmen out there who missed some of the critical parts of their
Permaculture training. If you get the ethics wrong then everything that
follows is bound to be wrong.
How do you "ethically" design billionaires into a Permaculture system?
I would love to hear a response to this question. We are talking about a
design system aren't we??
“Another world is not only possible, she is on her way.
On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing.”
~Arundhati Roy
-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Cory Brennan
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 3:43 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem
Paul,
I am with you on this one. I cannot fathom why some of us attack other of us
for taking money in exchange for the priceless value that permaculture
offers, and then wondering why we aren't getting anywhere. A billion dollars
might be enough, if permaculturists controlled it, to save the planet. So
why would we feel we need to avoid money? It's an energy that is considered
by most people to be "the" most legitimate exchange medium that there is.
While we educate and remind people about what real value and real wealth
actually is, and what other choices they have, it would be nothing but
helpful for us to control whatever medium of exchange allows us to
regenerate environments, or at least check the harm, to as great a degree as
possible. We could spend our time and energy arguing and cutting each other
over petty stuff, or we could stay focused and work together on the bigger
needs and picture - how this planet is doing as an organism, and how
cultures
are doing, as patterns.
I agree that surplus in the system only becomes pollution if it isn't used
to feed the system. It isn't the billion dollars that is polluting. It is
when it is used to harm or stifle the feeding process that it becomes
polluting. This is a really important distinction that seems to get
overlooked by too many people and they start avoiding energy instead of
capturing, storing and channeling it, which is the second principle of
permaculture. I consider anybody who tries to tell me what I shouldn't be
doing with money to be operating unconsciously and not using basic
permaculture design principles - they have obviously not bothered to observe
(the first principle) what I am actually doing with it, or to assess the
true value of the output (yield - third principle) that I am getting from
that. Those individuals usually do not accept feedback about their judgments
either, a violation of yet another permaculture principle. I think it is
safe to say that they
are pseudo permaculturists, and are using permaculture to run their own
agenda, whatever it is.
Koreen Brennan
www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
________________________________
From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in the
OldSystem
Yesterday we recorded a podcast review of Geoff Lawton's Introduction
to Permaculture DVD. In the beginning was a bit about the ethics.
And I had to wonder: where are there examples of people doing
permaculture, but because of the lack of ethics, things didn't turn
out. Things were bad. The person is still calling it permaculture,
but it is now awful due to the lack of ethics.
So then that situation can have "care of the earth; care of the
people; return of surplus to the first two" and everything becomes
right as rain.
I have yet to fathom even one realistic scenario.
I do see people using the three ethics (and mostly, twisted
variations) as a weapon to get other people to comply with ...
whatever. But in those scenarios, my impression has been that the bad
guys are the ones screaming the ethics, while the decent folks are
being screamed at.
Granted, there are bad guys out there doing bad things. And most of
the worst have never ever heard of permaculture. And I feel like a
bit of ethics could help the situation. But I doubt I will ever get
a chance to talk about ethics with them.
As for billionaires: I guess I'm in a weird position where it doesn't
bother me that somebody has a billion dollars lying around. What
bothers me is if a person got a billion dollars through unethical
behavior. I usually think of John Stewart. I doubt he has a billion
dollars - but he is far closer to a billion dollars than I am. I
don't see him as a bad person. I see that he did a cool thing and got
a lot of money for it.
I suppose there are many schools of thought around the permaculture
ethics. And around the billionaires thing. I suppose it is possible
that I am even the only person that is keen on permaculture that feels
this way on these two topics. I am grateful for the opportunity to
express my position.
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Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 07:08:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem
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let me clarify this further. If I controlled billions (since I get to create
my fantasy for the new year here :-), I would split it up between the most
dedicated and experienced designers I know - to the degree they felt they
could use it - and let them have at their favorite projects. I'd also give
large chunks of it to people who were most disenfranchised and ripped off the
worse, so they could rebuild their lives. That would probably use up most of
it....
Koreen Brennan
www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
________________________________
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem
Scott, I agree that the vast majority of wealth that is held by the 1% was
made unethically. And the vast majority of it is not being used nearly as
ethically as it could be, even by those few billionaires who might actually
care.
What I was trying to say is that I think that if permaculture designers had
control of billions, that we could use design principles to use that energy
far, far more ethically than those who do control it. I hope my message is
more clear now. One thing I would do with that kind of money is buy up key
bioregions, headwaters, watersheds, mountaintops, so they couldn't be
exploited. And buy up mountaintops that had been strip mined and regenerate
them. And use the influence money buys to put some truly sane solutions in
front of key people in positions of influence that might actually do
something sane with the information. There are many, many things I think
could be done with large sums of money to get more truly regenerative
permaculture design implemented. The first thing I would do with that kind of
money is come to the most veteran and experienced permaculturists around and
get their input on things. I'm not a "capitalist" and I'm clear about what
that is, generally, in this culture - someone who uses other people's money
and energy to gain control of as much of it as possible for themselves, by
whatever means possible in far too many cases, including outright stealing
and destructionof people and the earth, for no good reason other than to
control it. That is the "game" of capitalism to a large degree. But there are
certainly other games one can play with money besides that one. Like, fix the
damage that has been done - something we are certainly in a better position
to do than the vast majority of people who control the wealth....
Koreen Brennan
www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
________________________________
From: Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
To: 'permaculture' <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem
Wow! Getting dismissed by two dyed in the wool free enterprise capitalists
in one night, what a thrill.
Anyone with a few billion, million, or hundred thousand "laying around" is
not following an ethical life purpose. Those sums are either from
extraction from the earth or underpaid labor which takes care of the first
two ethics. And the excess "laying around" is a pollutant in the sense it
is not doing its duty to benefit the earth and people.
I know there are always those who argue that what is done with the money is
what makes it ethical or not but first one has to deal with how one received
it. Look at Bill Gates who has built a name for himself as an A.I.D.s
warrior with his dividends from his investments in Monsanto. Or his
flogging GMO's in Africa with a non-profit he built with the help of the
Rockefeller brothers who robbed their oil billions from Latin America. It
is always good to ask the prior question before declaring that accumulated
wealth is ethically neutral.
Hopefully this is what the occupy movement is all about. There is not a 2%
without the 98% contribution of mindless labor. How do we learn to
distinguish prosperous from wealth. One talks about meeting ones needs
(including joy, health, meaningful work, community, etc) the other means
hoarding and is greed based, the outcome of a fearful avoidance of being
left out.
This is not about attacking "others of us for taking money in exchange for
the priceless value that Permaculture offers" but about having a hyper
inflated idea of what our worth is for carrying this knowledge around. I
don't give a fig if someone makes a living using Permaculture to arrive at
good design decisions for clients what I do have a problem with is when the
knowledge is flawed. There are a lot of unconscious Permaculture "snake
oil" salesmen out there who missed some of the critical parts of their
Permaculture training. If you get the ethics wrong then everything that
follows is bound to be wrong.
How do you "ethically" design billionaires into a Permaculture system?
I would love to hear a response to this question. We are talking about a
design system aren't we??
“Another world is not only possible, she is on her way.
On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing.”
~Arundhati Roy
-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Cory Brennan
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 3:43 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
theOldSystem
Paul,
I am with you on this one. I cannot fathom why some of us attack other of us
for taking money in exchange for the priceless value that permaculture
offers, and then wondering why we aren't getting anywhere. A billion dollars
might be enough, if permaculturists controlled it, to save the planet. So
why would we feel we need to avoid money? It's an energy that is considered
by most people to be "the" most legitimate exchange medium that there is.
While we educate and remind people about what real value and real wealth
actually is, and what other choices they have, it would be nothing but
helpful for us to control whatever medium of exchange allows us to
regenerate environments, or at least check the harm, to as great a degree as
possible. We could spend our time and energy arguing and cutting each other
over petty stuff, or we could stay focused and work together on the bigger
needs and picture - how this planet is doing as an organism, and how
cultures
are doing, as patterns.
I agree that surplus in the system only becomes pollution if it isn't used
to feed the system. It isn't the billion dollars that is polluting. It is
when it is used to harm or stifle the feeding process that it becomes
polluting. This is a really important distinction that seems to get
overlooked by too many people and they start avoiding energy instead of
capturing, storing and channeling it, which is the second principle of
permaculture. I consider anybody who tries to tell me what I shouldn't be
doing with money to be operating unconsciously and not using basic
permaculture design principles - they have obviously not bothered to observe
(the first principle) what I am actually doing with it, or to assess the
true value of the output (yield - third principle) that I am getting from
that. Those individuals usually do not accept feedback about their judgments
either, a violation of yet another permaculture principle. I think it is
safe to say that they
are pseudo permaculturists, and are using permaculture to run their own
agenda, whatever it is.
Koreen Brennan
www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
________________________________
From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in the
OldSystem
Yesterday we recorded a podcast review of Geoff Lawton's Introduction
to Permaculture DVD. In the beginning was a bit about the ethics.
And I had to wonder: where are there examples of people doing
permaculture, but because of the lack of ethics, things didn't turn
out. Things were bad. The person is still calling it permaculture,
but it is now awful due to the lack of ethics.
So then that situation can have "care of the earth; care of the
people; return of surplus to the first two" and everything becomes
right as rain.
I have yet to fathom even one realistic scenario.
I do see people using the three ethics (and mostly, twisted
variations) as a weapon to get other people to comply with ...
whatever. But in those scenarios, my impression has been that the bad
guys are the ones screaming the ethics, while the decent folks are
being screamed at.
Granted, there are bad guys out there doing bad things. And most of
the worst have never ever heard of permaculture. And I feel like a
bit of ethics could help the situation. But I doubt I will ever get
a chance to talk about ethics with them.
As for billionaires: I guess I'm in a weird position where it doesn't
bother me that somebody has a billion dollars lying around. What
bothers me is if a person got a billion dollars through unethical
behavior. I usually think of John Stewart. I doubt he has a billion
dollars - but he is far closer to a billion dollars than I am. I
don't see him as a bad person. I see that he did a cool thing and got
a lot of money for it.
I suppose there are many schools of thought around the permaculture
ethics. And around the billionaires thing. I suppose it is possible
that I am even the only person that is keen on permaculture that feels
this way on these two topics. I am grateful for the opportunity to
express my position.
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>From wheaton.p@gmail.com Mon Dec 31 10:25:07 2012
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Food for thought: Sepp Holzer created something and then was told by
the bigs "that's permaculture". Sepp had not heard of the three
ethics - therefore this was created without the three ethics.
At the same time, I think Sepp has deep ethics.
- [permaculture] "how to spot farms with a future", David Glober, 12/31/2012
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