Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

permaculture - Re: [permaculture] Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] is Harpin allowed in organiccrops?

permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: permaculture

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
  • To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] is Harpin allowed in organiccrops?
  • Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 21:06:32 -0000

Important to note that harpic "interacts" (= kills?) with nematodes and insects, molds and bacteria and who knows what else (not tested on birds and mammals I think) which imo has little to do with a plant immune response. Looks more like a very broad spectrum new "Bt" interacting with a wide variety of very different orders of organisms.
It sets my alarm bells ringing!
john

----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 7:46 AM
Subject: [permaculture] Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] is Harpin allowed in organiccrops?


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] is Harpin allowed in organic crops?
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:59:16 -0500
From: jcummins <jcummins@UWO.CA>
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

Hi John,
Thanks for your comments. In the academic world the plant immune system
has finally been accepted and largely identified. The plant immune
system has an innate immunity layout that has features in common with
the innate immune system of animals including insects. It is rather
shocking that harpin has not been studied for its impact on animals even
though it does interact to control insects and and nematodes.According
to EPA Harpin is one of a class of proteins produced in nature by
certain bacterial plant pathogens. It acts by eliciting a complex
natural defense mechanism in plants, analogous to a broad spectrum
immune response in animals. While most pesticides act directly on the
target pest, Harpin, by contrast, elicits a protective response in the
plant that makes it resistant to a wide range of fungal, bacterial, and
viral diseases. Because Harpin does not interact directly with disease
pests, these organisms are not expected to develop resistance to it.

Science 3 July 1992:Vol. 257 no. 5066 pp. 85-88 DOI:
10.1126/science.1621099 Harpin, elicitor of the hypersensitive response
produced by the plant pathogen Erwinia amylovora
A proteinaceous elicitor of the plant defense reaction known as the
hypersensitive response was isolated from Erwinia amylovora, the
bacterium that causes fire blight of pear, apple, and other rosaceous
plants. The elicitor, named harpin, is an acidic, heat-stable,
cell-envelope-associated protein with an apparent molecular weight of 44
kilodaltons.

The elicitor is a part of the the disease but it is necessary but not
sufficient to cause entire disease progression instead it activates the
plants innate immune system.. I do not agree with the EPA view that
resistance of pathogens to the elicitor will not be observed even
though the pathogens are dealt with by actions brought about by the
elicitor. I think it likely that the pathogens will circumvent the
hypersensitive response in time. At any rate it is presently unclear
what exactly has been done to the elicitor that Monsanto and others are
exposing the world to. USDA and EPA really should open up information on
the exact molecule being released around the world. sincerely,

joe cummins

On 11/25/2011 6:16 PM, John D'hondt wrote:

Joe, I am far from convinced that even human vaccines are harmless
and working. Take for instance the flu vaccine. In an average year
2.6% of the population may get the flu. Vaccinated people have a 1.4%
chance to get the flu. So at best it seems that flu vaccination may
protect an extra one % of the population at great cost. And if you
look carefully then you will find that all the studies in favor of
vaccination are sponsored by the vaccine producers. Many other
studies find that vaccines give no extra protection at all or may
cause a disease worse than the one vaccinated against. Shingles were
almost exclusively the problem of elderly people but as soon as the
vaccine against chicken pox came on the market even children now get
shingles. Gardasil to me is too foul for words but it makes it
obvious what drives this : profit.

I also am not sure that plants have an immune system that is anywhere
the same as that found in mammals. It is possible that plants
produce more phytochemicals as a reaction to a pathogen challenge but
I have never found that quantified. I have instead found many more
complex ecological responses in plant diseases I have studied not as
a scientist but as a farmer. I suspect that plants may exude a sort
of attractant to organisms that eat the disease that threatens them.
(definitely potato blight, clubroot in crucifers and onion rot) One
can get easily rid of these diseases completely by creating
ecological conditions that suppress the disease. I would suggest that
this is also the reason that compost tea works. And if fire blight
were a problem to me I would first try to compost infected plant
parts and make a compost tea from this going on past experience.

Further, even if Harpin actually works as advertised now, does this
not train plants eventually not to react to the real treat rather
instead of the opposite? Producing a phytochemical is always
expensive for the plant and if it is forced to do that continuously
when there is no real treat it might soon stop to react even when
eventually the real treat shows up. If on the other hand there exists
an organism that naturally fights fire blight and that is attracted
by Harpin then this may soon become extinct since it finds nothing to
eat when it arrives.

I have other questions. Is the harpin protein identical to the one
produced by fire blight? That is not completely obvious to me.

John

Thanks Margaret and all others responding to my question. I find
that those selling Harpen as an organic pesticide tend to very
misleading regarding the fact that the commercial product is
produced by a transgene in E coli. An example of such a pitch is
given below. Also its use in organic production is a slippery slope
and the GM harpen products are looming and these will likely be
used as a wedge to allow USDA to declare transgenic crops to be
organic? Bothell, Washington-based Eden Bioscience has developed
the pesticide alternative they've dubbed Messenger—a product that
works on plants much the same way that a vaccine protects humans
from disease.Utilizing harpin, a naturally occurring protein first
discovered at Cornell University, Messenger—which received EPA
approval in 2000—activates a plant's natural defense and growth
systems. Eden says Messenger's harpin technology provides broad
protection against disease and reduces damage caused by pests.
This, claims Eden, leads to improved plant growth, crop yield and
quality. Even though the EPA classifies Messenger as a biochemical
pesticide, growers can be assured they are being ecologically
conscious when they use Messenger. That's because the harpin
protein in Messenger is virtually nontoxic. In addition, the plant
never actually absorbs the protein.
http://www.albrightseed.com/newtechnology.htm cheers, joe cummins

Important: EMPLOY is a natural product, but is not certified USDA
Organic and may not be used as part of a USDA Organic agriculture
program. On 11/25/2011 8:05 AM, Margaret Lauterbach wrote:
At 03:50 AM 11/25/2011, you wrote:
Check out the fact sheet at

http://www.epa.gov/oppbppd1/biopesticides/ingredients/factsheets/factsheet_006477.htm
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration or find out more about this list here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Garden Hand Tool Sourcelist and Biointensive Gardening Guide
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/gardening-hand-tools.faq
permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
Market Farming Mailing List
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/marketfarming








Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page