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  • From: Michael Snow <msnow@valley.net>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Variables for Keyline System Trials
  • Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 18:51:17 -0400

Thanks, Darren, thanks Neil,

I hope you'll continue to elaborate on such holistic research.

We're still fleshing things out over here, but just a thought in response to
Neil's point. Well said, and I wish we were doing that kind of work. I took
a listen to the podcast you recommended, and the presenter makes a good
point, that to study applied science perhaps we should set a goal (ala
Savory) and do it, and see what works.

I was glad to go to the Organic Farming Systems Research conference in
Washington last week, put on by OFRF, OTA, and USDA. The need for
transdisciplinary (as defined by John Reganold of WSU, and as opposed to
disciplinary, multi-disciplinary, inter-disciplinary, holistic research)
studies is understood - that is, studying systems wholly and with the input
of many stakeholders beyond just the academics. I think some of the
long-term studies in organic systems (flawed as they may be in other ways) do
take the right approach in that they aren't necessarily comparing "organic
soybeans" and conventional soybeans considering all constant variables (same
seed, timing, etc). Instead, some of these compare the systems - so they
treat each treatment as a farmer would, using best practices for that system
(ie, the right seed to match the specific organic fields' conditions.
Research is evolving, and toward the science of Steve Carpenter. At the same
time, there are social-academic requirements, such as three year grant cycles
and the need to compare everything to conventional agricultural practices.

Your thoughts may be supported based on the preliminary results of the Marin
project, where they rip but not on the contour. So far, the use of the
Yeoman's plow is resulting in a net carbon loss. There, the use of the plow
is taken out of context, though I'm glad they did.

Ours is a pretty small project, maybe the next step up. We'll be dividing
moderately sized fields in two and one side will be ripped along the keyline
contours and one side won't. The fields will be managed as part of the whole
farm, in these cases grazed or hayed (one HHD grazing operation, one MIG, one
hay, and one none). It's just a comparison to make initial observations - is
there a noticeable difference? After all, farmers will drive changes in
farming practices, particularly in adopting new technologies and strategies.
The data we take we hope will serve to inspire the next experimental
questions. Anyway, this is somewhere on the continuum between ripping (with
a "keyline plow") on an isometric plane and the full complement of
regenerative ag practices that might be appropriate at any one site. I wish
that this one could include the addition of carbon, in the form of seed or
compost, to offset the carbon released from ripping, but I don't think it's
going to work out that way, on these fields. That remains to be seen.

I'll certainly post our protocol and updates in the future, but the exchange
and the recent conference inspired me to comment. I'd love to hear more
about more appropriate ways to conduct research into regenerative ag
strategies.

Mike

Off topic, but the point about people being a keystone species, I need some
convincing. Mollison says, everything gardens: perhaps we can drive
ecosystems, and perhaps (perhaps not) in a mutually productive way, but we're
also pretty new on the scene. An interesting thought. I wonder how humans
in this context compare with salmonids in the PNW, bison in the Plains,
passenger pigeons in the East.


On Mar 23, 2011, at 11:31 AM, Neil Bertrando wrote:

> Thanks for the great feedback and the social climate context assessment. I
> agree reality is based on practicalities and that is where work can make a
> difference to more people and on larger areas of land. I would like to
> focus my works towards this end as well, so I definitely benefit from more
> exposure to real-world details to balance idealism.
>
> I understand that implementing a full Keyline Design system is both
> expensive and difficult to do with permitting in much of the US at least.
> Also, the timeline doesn't fit many scientific studies' deadlines and budget
> requirements. So I would love to hear the approach taken regarding these
> constraints and ways to improve integrating the strategies and patterns of
> various system methodologies (i.e. HM, Permaculture, Keyline, etc) for whole
> farm planning and decision making.
>
> I agree that Rapid topsoil development is a practical point of focus with
> the one of the best, if not the best, return on investment for farmers and
> ecosystems. A least change for the greatest effect scenario?
>
> This being the case, my concern with research on the Keyline Design system's
> role in Topsoil Development is to consider the role scale plays as the
> pattern is applied across landform shapes when designing a research study.
> Can we take something that is 'more' accessible such as simply applying
> Keyline pattern cultivation (maybe combined with diverse cover cropping on
> some areas) and test for the effects on ecosystem processes when it is
> applied in a manner that is more comparable to how it is used in whole farm
> planning? For example if a test plot is 15 m x 15 m, then does this test
> the role of Keyline pattern cultivation and it's effects on hydrologic
> function, soil biology, OM content, etc. at the landscape scale. I can see
> how it might if 5 or 10 or 100 hectares were pattern cultivated and then
> test plots were set up within this area for sampling and the questions asked
> and data collected reflected this 'nesting' within a larger system.
>
> In Reno, we are working on some similar projects and are trying to secure
> funding to do more. We are working with Keyline pattern cultivation and
> some integration of rest of the Keyline Design components, and we are
> assessing interest in peri-urban grazing research to see assess if the
> multiple needs of weed mitigation, fire protection, non-point source
> pollution, and development of ecosystem services can be met through well
> planned, well managed grazing businesses.
>
> For this reason, I appreciate any information that applies to working within
> the constraints of the current paradigm and how we can interface with this
> edge to develop healthy communities and healthy ecosystems. I hope that any
> info, background, references, or details of current projects that
> demonstrate viable applications of rapid topsoil development will continue
> to be shared here to help us all with our works.
>
> Another concern I have is the role science plays in policy. If we can
> coordinate quality studies that demonstrate rapid topsoil development, then
> we may be able to amplify the outreach and implementation through leveraging
> policy. If research doesn't directly affect farmers and ranchers decision
> making as much as other manager's experience, then the products of research
> might be best focused at the level of policy, which can then feedback into
> implementation at the farm or ranch level through other means (perhaps
> funding through NRCS grants, etc.). I haven't thought about this in much
> detail, so this is a quick and dirty thought on options for cycling the
> energy of research back to application.
>
> I look forward to hearing more about people's progress and projects in this
> realm.
>
> best to all,
> Neil
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Darren Doherty
> <darren@permaculture.biz>wrote:
>
>> G'day,
>>
>> Thanks for this assessment Neil. I have been enlisted as a consultant to
>> this project and accordingly my intentions are similar to those you've
>> outlined, however are tempered by the status quo I see around the world in
>> my work in broadacre agriculture.
>>
>> It is in fact very rare to see the full raft of Keyline Design concepts in
>> place. Even some of Yeoman's own properties didn't 'have it all'. The main
>> issue I would take with the suggestion that 'pilot scale plots are
>> insufficient' is the time problem. I.e. it would take a good 5-10-20 years
>> to get the full Keyline Design landscape developed to some state of
>> maturity
>> where the contour strip forest systems are of a stature where their effects
>> on the system are developed enough IMO. Perhaps most pertinent is the
>> reality that most contemporary agricultural systems are not by any means
>> highly integrated systems, quite the opposite, and so to create useful
>> examples of research in this sphere some simplification is necessary lest
>> we
>> create examples that the rank and file ag person is not going to identify
>> with, no matter how good they are.
>>
>> There have been plenty of attempts to have such studies completed from
>> Yeomans himself to my international work and others with SARE applications
>> stateside etc all not being supported. Whatever the case many people here
>> in
>> Australia and elsewhere understand enough of Keyline practices (as distinct
>> from the whole ideal system you speak of) that they are doing what they
>> can,
>> and this starts with the rapid topsoil development, which for me is the
>> most
>> important aspect of the Keyline system.
>>
>> Our development of the RegenAG*®* concept has been to bring all of these
>> concepts together under the scope of HM Decision Making, explored using
>> Permaculture and other Ecological Design principles and applied using
>> Permaculture Ethics. We are encouraging land managers to use the tools that
>> best suit their situation. Science doesn't really inform many of the land
>> managers that we work with as they are much more interested in hearing from
>> other land managers and those without a product to sell.
>>
>> Gotta run,
>>
>> Ciao,
>>
>> Darren
>>
>> On 22 March 2011 08:57, Neil Bertrando <neilbertrando@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Quick thought on this.
>>>
>>> Keyline Design's effectiveness is partially associated with it's
>>> application
>>> as a whole system design at a 'landscape' scale. I encourage you to
>>> consider how you design your study plots' size and spatial relationships
>>> based on this info. In my opinion, pilot scale plots are insufficient
>> for
>>> assessment and analysis of Keyline Design (and probably for Keyline
>> pattern
>>> cultivation effects as well). If possible, whole farm plots would be
>>> ideal.
>>> In either case, please consider the role of scale and how it may affect
>>> your results.
>>>
>>> I would love to see all the variables you mentioned tested.
>>>
>>> Another aspect to consider is the role of adaptive management and
>>> monitoring
>>> in the success of systems such as Keyline and Holistic planned grazing.
>>> This makes it difficult to design an experiment with 'scientific rigor'
>>> since rotation is based on monitoring and response to changing
>>> environmental
>>> conditions and is not a set number of days that can be repeated from plot
>>> to
>>> plot throughout one year or on the same plot from year to year. Not to
>> say
>>> it cannot be done, just that it will be imagination intensive.
>>>
>>> If you haven't heard the interview with Dan Daggett on the
>> Agroinnovations
>>> podcast, I suggest you check it out. The discussion touches on the
>>> relationship between science and management, but not really Keyline. I
>>> think that they hit the nail on the head with respect to the difficulty
>> in
>>> assessing Permaculture and Holistic Management systems scientifically. I
>>> hope you find the info useful with respect to your project design.
>>>
>>> here's a link,
>>>
>>>
>> http://agroinnovations.com/index.php/en_us/multimedia/blogs/podcast/2010/10/episode-109-the-gardeners-of-eden/
>>>
>>> Perhaps the Resilience Science framework for studying Socio-Ecological
>>> systems could also provide some insights with regards to study design.
>>>
>>> This site may be helpful:
>>> http://rs.resalliance.org/
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> Neil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Rich Blaha <rich@mossbackfarm.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Mike
>>>>
>>>> These guys http://soilcarboncoalition.org/ have started the process
>>>> measuring pasture carbon sequestration...their sidebar link on
>> monitoring
>>>> gives some good comprehensive methods for what you're trying to
>> measure.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck. We're looking at doing some similar trials...I look forward
>>> to
>>>> hearing how yours go
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Rich
>>>> www.mossbackfarm.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/14/2011 10:24 AM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. salmon-nettle soup with all native ingredients (paul wheaton)
>>>>> 2. Variables for Keyline System Trials (Michael Snow)
>>>>> 3. Bleeding Heartland:: ISU professor sounds alarm about future
>>>>> of Leopold Center (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:12:30 -0700
>>>>> From: Michael Snow<msnow@valley.net>
>>>>> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>>> Subject: [permaculture] Variables for Keyline System Trials
>>>>> Message-ID:<7CA24431-FA79-4061-B0CE-BDCB593B0297@valley.net>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Keyliners and Statisticians,
>>>>>
>>>>> As part of a grazers network in Maryland, we've acquired a yeoman's
>>> plow,
>>>>> with three shanks, coulters, standard toolbar, roller, seedboxes. We
>>> are in
>>>>> a sensitive watershed, the Chesapeake Bay watershed, and work in part
>> to
>>>>> encourage grass-based systems.
>>>>>
>>>>> We're designing a plan for evaluating it's use and effectiveness in
>>>>> improving soil quality, productivity, and environmental quality. This
>>> is an
>>>>> initial trial - not intended to be a rigorous, long-term experiment in
>>>>> itself, but we do expect it to be used to make initial observations
>>> which
>>>>> might translate into more formal research. That said, we'd like our
>>> trial
>>>>> to be tight and this is my request for assistance.
>>>>>
>>>>> This year, four farms are involved, and University extension will
>>>>> collaborate. Two of these farms are organic dairies, one entirely
>>>>> grass-based and utilizing mob grazing, the other largely grass-based
>>> with
>>>>> some feed-crop production. Of the other two sites, one is on
>> Extension
>>>>> land, the other is a beef grazing operation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Although we have some funding and that collaboration, we are
>> interested
>>> in
>>>>> monitoring perhaps 4-8 variables over three years, samples and tests
>>> largely
>>>>> pulled by farmers. Have any of you been involved in formal research
>> of
>>>>> keyline as a system? Regardless, do you have any suggestions for
>>> building a
>>>>> protocol for this project? A tentative list we are trying to whittle
>>> down
>>>>> so far includes:
>>>>>
>>>>> Bulk density, porosity, aggregate stability, penetration
>>> resistance
>>>>> Infiltration rate
>>>>> N, P measurements and sediment load (to compare to Bay Program
>>>>> baselines)
>>>>> Soil testing: biological (eg, soil food web, though expensive),
>>>>> chemical; Organic Matter; evaluating changes in the A horizon (depth,
>>>>> transition to B horizon)
>>>>> Forage productivity: forage testing, both biomass and quality
>>>>> through fecal samples; percent cover and species diversity; brix
>>>>> Milk production
>>>>> Field moisture
>>>>> The ever popular how'd-it-do test, subjective qualitative
>>> analysis
>>>>>
>>>>> Fields are divided to two, keeping soil class, texture, slope, and
>>>>> management consistent. They'll be evaluated side by side.
>>>>>
>>>>> We do hope to develop this protocol in fairly short order. Your
>>>>> suggestions are most welcome,
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> ******************************
>>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Hooroo,
>> Darren J. Doherty
>> UPCOMING EVENTS
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>> Series Australia & Aotearoa/New Zealand
>> Autumn 2011 EU RegenAG® Tour with Darren Doherty - Spain, UK, Germany, EU
>> _________________________________________
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