permaculture

["Thomas Paul Jahn" <tpj@life.ku.dk>]

Toby, I don't think it is about saying Darwin was wrong. It is more the
fact that science generally has a problem when dominated by a strong
view, a paradigm.
Neither symbiosis nor epigenetics is incompatible with Darwin's theory.
But Darwin as a dogma clearly looses momentum. 

With all respect to Thomas Kuhn and his contribution to science
philosophy, I suggest to call for a last and final paradigm shift in
science. And that last and final paradigm shift is to turn away from
Kuhn's idea of repeated paradigm shifts in mature science.

/Thomas

>>> Toby Hemenway  02-03-11 16:11 >>>
On Mar 1, 2011, at 7:07 PM, wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> there is no need to insult your fellow listers 

I am at a loss to see how anyone on this list can consider themselves
insulted by my calling the material on the ORMES website "nonsense,"  or
saying that science does not encourage loony birds. Let's not act like
victims here. If you don't like my language, fine, but accusing me of
insulting someone here personally? Please. Read more carefully (isn't
this whole thing about critical thinking?). I was quite polite to Chris,
yes? But I've never cared much about getting along with, or being polite
to people who are doing destructive work or trying to hoodwink the
ignorant. I welcome differences of opinion, but I don't welcome ideas
from people who haven't made the slightest effort to know what they are
talking about or who are trying to deceive. It has nothing to do with
opinion, intelligence, or education, and everything to do with being
honest about what you know and what you are trying to do. Trying to
deceive others and hide your real agenda is an evil, harmful act. A very
good way to defeat evil is to ridicule it, so I reserve the right to
ridicule or use any other tactic needed for that job. And if someone is
saying something that makes no sense, I will call it nonsense. 

I'm curious, Georg-- How was Darwin's theory changed by the people you
mention? My understanding is that Darwin's theory was modified little if
any by Margulis's ideas of symbiosis, since it was completely consistent
with natural selection, and changed none at all by Sagan or Lipton
(Lipton's ideas on the biology of belief are not well accepted--yet).
The major tweak to evolution theory was the Modern Synthesis of
Dobzhansky, Fisher, and company in the 1930s and 40s when the findings
from population biology and genetics were incorporated, and then a minor
upset with Gould and Eldredge's Punctuated Equilibrium in the 70s, but
even those didn't put Darwin's mechanism in doubt.

Ren, I appreciate your kindness, as I was not too kind to creationism.
It's encouraging to see a live example of science and religion living
harmoniously. Thank you.

I do apologize for hijacking the ORMES thread, but magic powders
interest me less than does learning to think.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com



On Mar 2, 2011, at 4:39 AM, georg parlow wrote:

> Hi Toby:
> 
> while I agree with you for the most part, I dislike the way you
ridicule and insult people who hold different opinions or are of lesser
education. Also I want to comment on one thing:
> 
>> Those theories may get tweaked, but I am willing to bet a large sum
that they will never be discarded.
> 
> 
> I certainly agree, that the basic idea of evolution is hard to
overthrow. But 'Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection' had
already to take quite a few heavy 'tweaks' when Lynn Margulis, Dorion
Sagan or Bruce Lipton published their findings.
> 
> 
> 
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> 
> Georg Parlow
> ************
> g.parlow@gmx.at
> 1230 Wien, Wohnpark Alterlaa B1/013
> +43-650-8899345
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration or find out
more about this list here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> List contacts: permacultureforum@gmail.com and paul@richsoil.com

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration or find out more
about this list here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
List contacts: permacultureforum@gmail.com and paul@richsoil.com