permaculture

[Killian O'Brien <admin@pri-de.org>]

Excellent description of a moderated forum, having done it, also.

Cheers,

Killian O'Brien
PRI-De
admin@pri-de.org
(313) 647-4015

killiankob@yahoo.com
(760) 617-4693

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org 
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of paul wheaton
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 1:06 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: [permaculture] censorship

I have to confess that I skip most of this sort of talk.  I've been
managing on-line forums for over 20 years.  But I see scott post and I
wanna read what he has to say.

First I need to say:  freedom of the press belongs to those that own one.

Next up:  ALL forums and mailing lists that get to any size have a
powerful desire to devolve into one of two states:

A)  pure fluff and no content (hugs, hi, how is the weather, you're so
cool, beautiful day, i'm sad, etc.)

B)  pure flame wars and no content

To end up with something that has content and is low on A and B takes
..... censorship.

And it isn't as if there are obvious choices.  Usually, the stuff to
be deleted is kinda borderline.  But borderline stuff encourages more
stuff near or over the border.  And if you delete stuff over the
border, that person complains that their stuff is no different than
the stuff near the border that you didn't delete.

Being a moderator often means you are a hate sponge.  90% of all
deletions I have ever made resulted in people wanting to have a five
hour conversation about my poor heritage, my lower than average IQ, my
lousy personal hygiene and my general inability to understand basic
common sense.   And then later, people come along and say "I love this
place:  lots of information and no arguing or fluff!"

The neat thing is that each person that feels they have been wronged,
can go out and create a new mailing list or forum or blog or whatever
they want.  I know that if somebody creates a new forum that is "all
about the REAL permaculture and NOT what that asshole paul wheaton
says is permaculture"  I will gladly make a link to it.  And if
somebody wants to talk about the third ethic or social justice, I will
gladly direct them to such a forum.

I suspect that LL is in a similar boat:  if somebody wants to make a
mailing list that is all about the stuff that LL doesn't want on his
list, then he will gladly direct people to that list.

It is a difficult, gut wrenching job.  For no pay.  And when it is
running well, you will have a crowd of people that think it is
borderline okay, and a smaller crowd that have been banned that really
hate your guts.

Here is how almost all bannings go down:

"hey you are posting stuff that is outside of my comfort zone"

"like I give a shit about your comfort zone" or "then your comfort
zone is wrong" or some other jibber jabber.  Or "okay, then I will
never do that again" (and then they do it over and over again).

Then, when they are banned for it, they .... well ... appeal to others
to .... what .... take over? ....  overthrow the owner?  Force the
owner to see "reason"?

It is unfortunate how fragmented permaculture stuff is.  Rather than
20 sites all trying to be "permaculture central" it would be nice to
have one central site.  At the same time, there is a lot of stuff that
people want to label "permaculture" that is outside the comfort zone
of others.  So - I think we cannot avoid the fragmentation.

LL:  I applaud the work you do.  I support your right to ban anybody
who cannot play within your comfort zone.  I know it is a painful
thing to do, and that you do it for what you believe is in the best
interests of the community.

On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org> wrote:
>
> For me the decisions by Larry to limit who may speak and who may not has
> been capricious and not in keeping with his newly stated policy of a hands
> off policy unless it is for personal attacks.  I have always assumed that in
> a permaculture list serve that we would always abide by the principals and
> ethics of permaculture "people care" but the latest exercise of power of the
> "owner" of this discussion group is contrary to those principals.
>
> I don't mean to take anything away from Larry who had worked mightily to see
> that permaculture and other sustainable systems got a hearing in the general
> mayhem of the Web.  I am thankful to him for the help he has afforded me in
> working on the Permaculture Info site but this doesn't mean that I am
> willing to bite my tongue to avoid his displeasure and censure.
>
>
> I just received this letter from Kevin and found it compelling and accurate
> in its attempt to inject some reason into the last series of contentious
> postings on Ibiblio.  I think that it is worth sharing and considering.
>
> Seeking openness and fairness in dialogue and in how we treat one another.
>
> Scott Pittman
>
> dear scott, larry, cory,
>
> so LL has banned me again, permanently this time he says.
>
> of course i don't want to be banned, i don't feel it is "fair" to be singled
> out personally, etc but this isn't really what i want to point out.
>
> these different strains and perspectives in permaculture are always go to be
> there, and if anything are growing, and any list is going to reflect that.
> LL, you will never be able to "weed" the list of people with opinions that
> differ from yours, and you are damaging the community on this list (and
> permaculture by extension) by even trying imho
>
> the future of permaculture of course does not depend on this list, but it is
> a micrcosm.  shouldn't we all be trying to create on it the reality we
> want?  i have to say i honestly tried, tho of course i could do better.  i
> wrote things that were important to me, (and to
> others) and tried to do it without attacking anyone personally.  this was
> really hard! to do when i WAS getting very personally attacked from the very
> beginning.
>
> my god, i certainly tried to practice what i preach, but it was not easy!
> how am i suppose to do it different LL?  really?  seriously?
>
> my observation is that the posts i contributed were -not- what caused people
> to leave the list.  no-one would have left the list because of those, nor
> threatened to.
>
>  it was LL's  (and your's too scott) very hostile reactions, that then
> caused more hositilty in return etc etc that turned people off..   so LL you
> are by far your own worst enemy when it comes to the dynamics of the list.
> if you ignored posts like mine you don't agree with, or responded in some
> other way than abuse, none of these things would escalate, and people with
> opinions like mine (and there are many LL) would be able to be part of the
> ecology of the list, and not drive anyone away.
>
> anyway, it might be me today, but it will be someone else tommorow, and
> unless LL changes the pattern in how he manages, the "drama" will never
> stop.
>
> i wish it were different. and i wish you all well. (and i wish i were
> allowed on the list, and by extension the "community" as well)
>
> below is a personal email sent to LL the other day. it expresses more of
> what i feel is his dilemma, that i think scott accurately percieved when he
> (scott) recomended LL not ban folks.
>
> regards,
> kevin
>
>
> kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com>
> venaurafarm@bellsouth.net
>
> Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 8:56 AM
> Larry- an observation for you
>  Sep 21 (1 day ago)
>
> good morning larry!
>
> it is morning here anyway, and we just had our first frost.  (we are in a
> frost pocket) lovely morning though.
>
> so, i have a couple of observations for you...
>
> the first, is that it seems to me that your service to the ibilio listserve,
> while an invaluable service to so many, is for you yourself  something like
> the work of sysiphus, who is forever pushing the rock up the hill only to
> see it roll back down.
>
> the reason it seems this way to me is because you are forever having to
> "deal" with people like me who have different opinions than you on some
> things, and not only that but they are taking the list (as you have defined
> it) at face value which is a forum for discussing permaculture in all it's
> facets so long as they are not too rude, use personal attacks, etc
>
> so forever people are going to join the list, and use to it express,
> dialogue etc about the things they feel are important to them, and you may
> disagree, and then ban/attack them and then the whole cycle starts again.
> it is a dliemna for everyone!
>
> and another dilemma is that you appear somewhat arbitrary on how you
> "enforce" the limited rules that there are, so people see that you ban some
> people simply for their opinions, and you let others (including
> yourself) to violate the rules without any repercussions.  i am pointing
> this out not as a judgement, but an observation.   and this pattern is
> clearly observable to people, not just me,  and since humans have an innate
> sense of "justice" and you will forever be percieved as a tyrant because of
> this.  another dilemma
>
> of course if you were to change the list description to "this is Larry's
> Permaculture list"  and then tell folks that you were going to adminerster
> as you see fit, with whatever soveriegn arbitrariness you feel like that
> day, then that would be fine. there would be no problems. in fact i would
> enjoy! that list because it would be very
> clear: annoy larry, and you are gone.  i would happily accept that. it would
> be just fine with me.
>
> but alas, the list is described and "marketed" as a community forum.
> it will forever contain within it the varied strains, opinions, diverging
> and converging energies that are permaculture.  that will never change.  if
> it isn't me this week, it will be someone else the next.
>
> that's it.  an observation really.  no suggestions for you, but the options
> seem to me to be:
>
> 1)keep on keeping on with the status quo, and like sysiphus keep on pushing
> the rocks!
>
> 2) let it go larry!  let go and simply watch the stream flow by without
> attachment. let the discussions go where they will, and don't try to force
> the flow of things.   this is a real option you know.
>
> 3) is there a three?  i don't know, i just started typing and out it came.
>
> i'm going back inside to get another cup of coffee.  it sure is a lovely
> morning!
>
> i do wish you well.
> kevin
>
>
>
>
> Scott Pittman
> Director
> Permaculture Institute
> www.permaculture.org
>
>
>
>
>
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