permaculture

[Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>]

Thank you, Scott.  It's now on my wish list.  And thanks Douglas for the 
thoughts on black walnuts; duly noted.  It's also very rewarding to read 
Lawrence's reposted thread on the subject to discover that I've just planted 
the exact things I need to follow those recommendations.  Just put a Kashmir 
blend pomegranate in the ground last night, squash/pumpkins are forthcoming, 
11 varieties of garlic will be shipped to me mid-summer from my previous 
garden in Washington state, and a papaya is on the short list (probably more 
as a vegetable than a fruit in my zone 8 climate).
 
I also planted a black bamboo, pineapple guava, and Russian tea last night!  
Very exciting.  A lot of firsts for my new southern garden.
 
As for Mr. Sneed's question, I can't imagine that comfrey would have any 
deleterious effects on goats, (probably the opposite), although I don't have 
direct experience with that combination.  I just did my first comfrey cutting 
of the season for olive mulch a few days ago...man that stuff is robust!
 
Tripp



The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 

--- On Tue, 5/18/10, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org> wrote:


From: Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] goat worming plants?
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 8:44 PM


I can't recommend highly enough the book by Juliette de Bairacli Levy called
"The complete Herbal Handbook for Farm and Stable".  

Scott Pittman
Director
Permaculture Institute
www.permaculture.org


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>From slowfoodguy@yahoo.com  Wed May 19 10:51:15 2010
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From: Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] animals in food systems
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Rain,
I also thought this was a nice sentiment, and something you've obviously put 
a lot of time into thinking about.  If I may be so bold as to offer a 
counterpoint I will though.  As I become more embedded in natural systems and 
allow permacultural thought to direct my behavior, I can't help but marvel at 
the brilliance of plants in particular.  Since they can't evade predators 
they employ some pretty amazing techniques to defend themselves - flavanoids, 
anti-oxidants, pheromones to attract winged defenders, and so forth.  
Soybeans no more want to be eaten than chickens.  In practical terms, I'm 
beginning to see plants as the "permanent" parts of the consciously-developed 
human ecosystem, and animals as mere passers-through.  Animals seem more 
transient to me.  They stop through, eat something, and leave behind a little 
fertility in exchange for dinner.  They almost strike me as the real food 
part of the system, with herbs and fruit as
 accompaniment.
 
Maybe this is what Bill Mollison was driving at when he said not to sell 
anything that couldn't walk off the farm.  Retain sessile fertility onsite, 
eat the ambulatory passers-by.  Maybe not, but that's my take anyway.
 
Toby's article "Is Sustainable Agriculture an Oxymoron?" might even suggest 
that this meat-heavy arrangement is actually more sustainable in the long run 
since it tends to produce fewer children than pro-grain and hoarding 
agriculture.
 
I'm not judging anyone's personal convictions, and there is certainly no 
"one-size-fits-all" diet to be had.  Just offering my thoughts on the 
subject.  Thanks for the dialogue.
 
Tripp



The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 

--- On Tue, 5/18/10, Rain Tenaqiya <raincascadia@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Rain Tenaqiya <raincascadia@yahoo.com>
Subject: [permaculture] animals in food systems
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 7:10 PM







I posted that article because it seemed to really sum up a lot of the factors 
that one should consider in deciding whether or not the use of domesticated 
animals in food systems would be sustainable.  I also liked her consideration 
of ethical issues.  I have been struggling with reconciling the these two 
(sustainability and ethics as related to domesticated animals).  I have no 
doubt that any domesticated animal could be part of a sustainable system.  I 
even think that most systems would be more efficient and productive with 
domesticated animals included (not to mention wild animals).  
 
My personal reluctance to involve domesticated animals in my systems are 
mostly practical and ethical.  As a household of two with the closest 
neighbors each a half mile away, it has been difficult for me to figure out 
how to have more than just a cat (for killing voles) and fish without having 
too many fences and never being able to leave our place for fear that the 
animals would die of hunger or be killed by predators.  I'm still trying to 
figure out how to have ducks.  Ethically, I reject caging animals for all or 
a good part of their lives and regard this as a form of slavery.  I also 
cannot bring myself to kill the larger, more sentient beasts.  Even killing 
fish seems too selfish for me, but I'm trying to convince myself that my 
situation (marginal land) justifies it.  I feel kind of stupid for not 
wanting to take advantage of all the deer, pigs, and turkeys that live around 
here and that often create problems for me, when they could be a
solution to my food needs.  However, I am committed to an ethic of creating 
minimal harm, and until I prove to myself that I would be causing more harm 
by growing my own nuts and legumes than I would by killing these animals, I 
won't kill them.
 
Modern people living in rich countries now have access to an incredible 
number of plants and an abundance of new technologies that make it much 
easier to grow all the nutrition you need without relying on domesticated 
animals.  Care for the Earth includes caring for all the wild and 
domesticated animal species on it and each person needs to figure out what 
this means at their particular locale and with their particular needs.  This 
is a very complex and personal topic that I feel should always be an open 
question.  There is no Ten Commandments handed down by the Universe that 
tells us how to deal with the fact that life requires death.  As humuns, we 
feel compassion for others and hopefully are always seeking to maximize the 
benefits to others that we can create, while minimizing the harms.
 
Rain


      
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Moringa and spirulina both are green food that have complete proteins
Moringa is an amazingly useful plant

Sent from my iPhone

On May 19, 2010, at 5:17 AM, "Lawrence F. London, Jr." 
<venaurafarm@bellsouth.net
 > wrote:

>
> Diane Frances wrote:
>> I would love to learn
>> more about how to create meals that provide balanced nutrition
>> without using
>> animal protein and hope we can start a thread on this subject.
>
> Hello Dianne:
>
> Sounds like you've got a nice farm and have accepted the challenge of
> making marginal land work for you. A previous thread on soil
> improvement, double digging, tools should prove useful to you.
> I too have an interest in non meat protein dietary options and have
> explored this subject intensely since the early sixties when I
> discovered vegetarianism and macrobiotic foods. Later I learned much
> about raw foods nutrition.
>
> Just for starters here is a list of non meat protein sources that I
> select from daily. I do eat meat but like to rely on vegetarian
> choices
> as often as possible.
>
> food yeast, brewers and red star (yellow flaky)
> beans: I like precooked, canned beans, whole or refried
> sprouts
> nuts
> seeds (especially pumpkin, sesame, sunflower)
> peanuts
> grains, especially barley, rice, oats, corn
> soy products: tofu, tempeh, soy milk, fermented: miso, tamari
> collards
>
> As far as growing your own, much of this list can be produced on your
> own land, some easily, some not so. Setting up a sprout farm is a good
> thing. There are very many seeds and beans that can be sprouted for
> use
> cooked or raw in salads, alone or on sandwiches.
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