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- From: Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>
- To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: Re: [permaculture] From Mexico - Thoughts on PDCs
- Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:02:29 -0800 (PST)
Holger Hieronimi wrote:
>For many years, we were lucky that there was no discussion on this topic
>here in mexico, >but now there are quite a few people who travelled all the
>way to australia, took courses >there, and come back claiming to be the only
>REAL permaculturists, credited legally and >internationally to be the only
>authorized PC teachers here, by the way ignoring all the >work done by the
>pioneers during more than twenty years. Possibly, this is a sign, that >the
>mexican permaculture scene gets finally "mature", but in my case its making
>me >consider, if I should drop the word permaculture once again from my
>activities.
And wouldn't that be a tragedy for the movement? Someone with over 20 years
of pioneering work in permaculture, contemplating resigning the term,
diverting attention from Pc at the worst possible time, just because they
aren't sporting the "right" brand name. Sounds remarkably like a caste system
evolving to me....
Thanks, Holger. Well said.
Tripp out.
The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
--- On Sat, 12/12/09, Holger Hieronimi <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
From: Holger Hieronimi <holger@tierramor.org>
Subject: [permaculture] From Mexico - Thoughts on PDCs
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 1:19 PM
This discussion on the PCDs is as old as the PCD, I think
at least it´s around since I made my PCD, some thirteen years ago-
al allways, there are those who think that the PCD is the ONLY way of
teaching and learning Permaculture
sometimes wishing even to "centralize" the issuing, having only acredited
teachers from some central institution, at best copyrighting the word and
having everything "under control".... forgetting about some basic system
principles, that also apply to the so-called "permaculture movement"-
as an old rebel from academia, I do not really know, what a piece of paper
"certificates" .... somewhat, I hold a design certificate and even a diploma
(but here I allready will get in trouble with some of the centralizers and
"purists", since my diploma was part of a somewhat self-issued version, that
was created once and never again in 1999, for the first generation of mexican
PC activists, to celebrate ouselves and our projects, credited by the now
extinct PC drylands institute, Earthcare education, and the now extinct
mexican PC institute...)
the only time when I used those papers, was to get a working permit as a PC
designer and teacher from the mexican migration offices .... I prefer not to
weave around with them too much....
maybe we should apply PC principles on the permaculture teaching isuue (well,
then we maybe have a problem, that now there are quite a few different sets
of principles around,....personally I stick on Holmgrens set, which, in my
case, proved to be an incredible help as a thinking tool...)
whats happening with the principle Nr 10 "Use and value diversity...."?
personally I tend to accept this, in this context I remember a comment made
by darren Doherty a few weeks ago:
Otherwise the clear option is to make your own institutes, your own
certificates and deliver the course (s) that the people in your markets
need. Sure the imprimatur of giving a TPI PDC certificate is great but it is
not the be all and end all....
Here in mexico, I found the traditional PCD-sceme rather limiting. First of
all, you need people having time and money to pay for it. Then, the TPI
curriculum discourages explicitly bioregional expressions. Then, quite easy,
it seems that you just copy the content of the designers manual and call it
curriculum, send it to australia, pay 2.50 dollars for each "original"
certificate, prove your own certification, and THATS IT.... ????
How somebody from Australia can certificate what I´m doing here ??? How can
they charge for that ???
We do not need necesarily more Design certificate holders, *we need more
Permaculture Activists. *Its your action that certificates you. Master
designers like Darren or Geoff Lawton dont need to walk around showing their
certificates and diplomas. For them, as for me and many other PC-teachers/
practitioners, the PCD was the STARTING PIONT for serious learnig and
action.. And this I hope to communicate in our courses and workshops
Since i facilitated my first two week course, seven years ago, we found out
that its easier to stay marginal to this PCD sceme, allthough those first
courses were problably closest to the original DesignCertificate sceme we
did, since the Designers Manual was by then nearly the only textbook we used-
luckily, my bibliografy as well as the content and scope of the courses,
widened a lot since then-
For many years, we were lucky that there was no discussion on this topic here
in mexico, but now there are quite a few people who travelled all the way to
australia, took courses there, and come back claiming to be the only REAL
permaculturists, credited legally and internationally to be the only
authorized PC teachers here, by the way ignoring all the work done by the
pioneers during more than twenty years. Possibly, this is a sign, that the
mexican permaculture scene gets finally "mature", but in my case its making
me consider, if I should drop the word permaculture once again from my
activities.
saludos
Holger Hieronimi
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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>From slowfoodguy@yahoo.com Sat Dec 12 14:07:53 2009
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Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:07:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] From Mexico - Thoughts on PDCs
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Correction: 13 years in permaculture.
The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
--- On Sat, 12/12/09, Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] From Mexico - Thoughts on PDCs
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 7:02 PM
Holger Hieronimi wrote:
>For many years, we were lucky that there was no discussion on this topic
>here in mexico, >but now there are quite a few people who travelled all the
>way to australia, took courses >there, and come back claiming to be the only
>REAL permaculturists, credited legally and >internationally to be the only
>authorized PC teachers here, by the way ignoring all the >work done by the
>pioneers during more than twenty years. Possibly, this is a sign, that >the
>mexican permaculture scene gets finally "mature", but in my case its making
>me >consider, if I should drop the word permaculture once again from my
>activities.
And wouldn't that be a tragedy for the movement? Someone with over 20 years
of pioneering work in permaculture, contemplating resigning the term,
diverting attention from Pc at the worst possible time, just because they
aren't sporting the "right" brand name. Sounds remarkably like a caste system
evolving to me....
Thanks, Holger. Well said.
Tripp out.
The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
--- On Sat, 12/12/09, Holger Hieronimi <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
From: Holger Hieronimi <holger@tierramor.org>
Subject: [permaculture] From Mexico - Thoughts on PDCs
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 1:19 PM
This discussion on the PCDs is as old as the PCD, I think
at least it´s around since I made my PCD, some thirteen years ago-
al allways, there are those who think that the PCD is the ONLY way of
teaching and learning Permaculture
sometimes wishing even to "centralize" the issuing, having only acredited
teachers from some central institution, at best copyrighting the word and
having everything "under control".... forgetting about some basic system
principles, that also apply to the so-called "permaculture movement"-
as an old rebel from academia, I do not really know, what a piece of paper
"certificates" .... somewhat, I hold a design certificate and even a diploma
(but here I allready will get in trouble with some of the centralizers and
"purists", since my diploma was part of a somewhat self-issued version, that
was created once and never again in 1999, for the first generation of mexican
PC activists, to celebrate ouselves and our projects, credited by the now
extinct PC drylands institute, Earthcare education, and the now extinct
mexican PC institute...)
the only time when I used those papers, was to get a working permit as a PC
designer and teacher from the mexican migration offices .... I prefer not to
weave around with them too much....
maybe we should apply PC principles on the permaculture teaching isuue (well,
then we maybe have a problem, that now there are quite a few different sets
of principles around,....personally I stick on Holmgrens set, which, in my
case, proved to be an incredible help as a thinking tool...)
whats happening with the principle Nr 10 "Use and value diversity...."?
personally I tend to accept this, in this context I remember a comment made
by darren Doherty a few weeks ago:
Otherwise the clear option is to make your own institutes, your own
certificates and deliver the course (s) that the people in your markets
need. Sure the imprimatur of giving a TPI PDC certificate is great but it is
not the be all and end all....
Here in mexico, I found the traditional PCD-sceme rather limiting. First of
all, you need people having time and money to pay for it. Then, the TPI
curriculum discourages explicitly bioregional expressions. Then, quite easy,
it seems that you just copy the content of the designers manual and call it
curriculum, send it to australia, pay 2.50 dollars for each "original"
certificate, prove your own certification, and THATS IT.... ????
How somebody from Australia can certificate what I´m doing here ??? How can
they charge for that ???
We do not need necesarily more Design certificate holders, *we need more
Permaculture Activists. *Its your action that certificates you. Master
designers like Darren or Geoff Lawton dont need to walk around showing their
certificates and diplomas. For them, as for me and many other PC-teachers/
practitioners, the PCD was the STARTING PIONT for serious learnig and
action... And this I hope to communicate in our courses and workshops
Since i facilitated my first two week course, seven years ago, we found out
that its easier to stay marginal to this PCD sceme, allthough those first
courses were problably closest to the original DesignCertificate sceme we
did, since the Designers Manual was by then nearly the only textbook we used-
luckily, my bibliografy as well as the content and scope of the courses,
widened a lot since then-
For many years, we were lucky that there was no discussion on this topic here
in mexico, but now there are quite a few people who travelled all the way to
australia, took courses there, and come back claiming to be the only REAL
permaculturists, credited legally and internationally to be the only
authorized PC teachers here, by the way ignoring all the work done by the
pioneers during more than twenty years. Possibly, this is a sign, that the
mexican permaculture scene gets finally "mature", but in my case its making
me consider, if I should drop the word permaculture once again from my
activities.
saludos
Holger Hieronimi
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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>From friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com Sat Dec 12 14:46:18 2009
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From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] - Thoughts on PDCs
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Hear hear,
Holger Hieronimiâs 12/12 email (From Mexico) on pdcs was very good (to my
way of thinking) and I echo many of his thoughts.Â
Perhaps Holgerâs most important point for me was âWe do not need
necessarily more Design certificate holders, *we need more Permaculture
Activists. *Its your action that certificates you.â
A couple of common sayings that are appropriate here are: âActions speak
louder than wordsâ; and âBy their fruits, ye shall know themâ. It is
your successes that illustrate your grasp of permaculture principles, not a
piece of paper. Permaculture is about action. It is about changing the world
(albeit a little bit at a time). You can read and study all you want but it
ainât permaculture till it is put into practice. A quote from Bill
Mollison: âIt isnât permaculture until itâs on the groundâ.
There is also something to be said for demonstrating permaculture principles
in inter-personal relationships. The concept of âharmonious
interactionsâ fits here. If a person cannot interact harmoniously with
other people than they are not going to be a good teacher or organizer
(although they might still be good at creating good, physical systems).
The ideal permaculturist is good at putting physical systems on the ground
AND good at harmonious social interaction. And whether or not they hold a
permaculture design course certificate (or whether it is an accredited pdc or
not) is somewhat of a moot point at this level.
This said, I still believe that taking a pdc is the quickest way for people
to get a clear grasp of permaculture as a systems approach to designing. I
heartily support permaculture design courses as a pre-requisite before people
publicly teach or consult under the banner of permaculture (in addition to
lots of reading, study and hands-on experience).
But lets face it, permaculture does not have a corner on the market of good
design, good land stewardship, good ideas, etc. It is only one of many
great exciting things happening in the world to make the planet a better
place for all living beings. A real permaculturist will not feel superior
to (or look down their noses at) the far greater numbers of people who are
doing good work on the planet. Some of the best practicing permaculturists
on the planet have never even heard the word. And lets face it, there are
more than enough mediocre to crummy folks waving their permaculture design
course certificates around and wanting to collect other peopleâs money for
teaching and consulting.Â
Which brings us to another can of worms, which is: how can the permaculture
movement exercize some quality control around permaculture teaching,
consulting, etc. This has been debated within the movement for 30 years. I
donât see how it is possible at this point and so we are currently left
with building personal reputations and word of mouth.Â
Value diversity in how permaculture is taught, of which design courses is
just one way (albeit a highly valued way). And if permaculture design is
site specific, client specific and culture specific, it seems to be the
height of folly to make all pdcs a standardized curriculum no matter where
taught in the world or to which cultural group. None of my pdc courses has
ever been exactly alike. The bottom line for me is to inculcate the
permaculture principles and design methodology.
PS. Just because their are some poor-quality pdcs doesn't invalidate pdcs in
general.
My opinion is that a large majority of pdcs offered in the world are good
quality.
To sum up, this letter has no conclusions, just some opinions.Â
Permacordially
Michael Pilarski
--- On Sat, 12/12/09, Holger Hieronimi <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
From: Holger Hieronimi <holger@tierramor.org>
Subject: [permaculture] From Mexico - Thoughts on PDCs
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 5:19 AM
This discussion on the PCDs is as old as the PCD, I think
at least it´s around since I made my PCD, some thirteen years ago-
al allways, there are those who think that the PCD is the ONLY way of
teaching and learning Permaculture
sometimes wishing even to "centralize" the issuing, having only acredited
teachers from some central institution, at best copyrighting the word and
having everything "under control".... forgetting about some basic system
principles, that also apply to the so-called "permaculture movement"-
as an old rebel from academia, I do not really know, what a piece of paper
"certificates" .... somewhat, I hold a design certificate and even a
diploma (but here I allready will get in trouble with some of the
centralizers and "purists", since my diploma was part of a somewhat
self-issued version, that was created once and never again in 1999, for the
first generation of mexican PC activists, to celebrate ouselves and our
projects, credited by the now extinct PC drylands institute, Earthcare
education, and the now extinct mexican PC institute...)
the only time when I used those papers, was to get a working permit as a PC
designer and teacher from the mexican migration offices .... I prefer not to
weave around with them too much....
maybe we should apply PC principles on the permaculture teaching isuue (well,
then we maybe have a problem, that now there are quite a few different sets
of principles around,....personally I stick on Holmgrens set, which, in my
case, proved to be an incredible help as a thinking tool...)
whats happening with the principle Nr 10 "Use and value diversity...."?
personally I tend to accept this, in this context I remember a comment made
by darren Doherty a few weeks ago:
   Otherwise the clear option is to make your own institutes, your own
certificates and deliver the course (s) that the  people in your markets
need. Sure the imprimatur of giving a TPI PDC certificate is great but it is
not the be all and  end all....
Here in mexico, I found the traditional PCD-sceme rather limiting. First of
all, you need people having time and money to pay for it. Then, the TPI
curriculum discourages explicitly bioregional expressions. Then, quite
easy, it seems that you just copy the content of the designers manual and
call it curriculum, send it to australia, pay 2.50 dollars for each
"original" certificate, prove your own certification, and THATS IT.... ????
How somebody from Australia can certificate what I´m doing here ??? HowÂ
can they charge for that ???
We do not need necesarily more Design certificate holders, *we need more
Permaculture Activists. *Its your action that certificates you. Master
designers like Darren or Geoff Lawton dont need to walk around showing their
certificates and diplomas. For them, as for me and many other PC-teachers/
practitioners, the PCD was the STARTING PIONT for serious learnig andÂ
action. And this I hope to communicate in our courses and workshops
Since i facilitated my first two week course, seven years ago, we found out
that its easier to stay marginal to this PCD sceme, allthough those first
courses were problably closest to the original DesignCertificate sceme we
did, since the Designers Manual was by then nearly the only textbook we used-
luckily, my bibliografy as well as the content and scope of the courses,
widened a lot since then-
For many years, we were lucky that there was no discussion on this topic here
in mexico, but now there are quite a few people who travelled all the way to
australia, took courses there, and come back claiming to be the only REAL
permaculturists, credited legally and internationally to be the only
authorized PC teachers here, by the way ignoring all the work done by the
pioneers during more than twenty years. Possibly, this is a sign, that the
mexican permaculture scene gets finally "mature", but in my case its making
me consider, if I should drop the word permaculture once again from my
activities.
saludos
Holger Hieronimi
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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-
[permaculture] From Mexico - Thoughts on PDCs,
Holger Hieronimi, 12/12/2009
- Re: [permaculture] From Mexico - Thoughts on PDCs, Tripp Tibbetts, 12/12/2009
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