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  • From: Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] double digging PLUS machinery? etc.
  • Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:14:24 -0800 (PST)

Thanks for that, Isabel.  I've been having a lot of thoughts along the same
lines lately.  In fact, there's been some recent chatter on this listserv
along lines of scale that don't strike me as particularly permacultural.  As
Michael Pilarski said earlier today, even a national permaculture convergence
in the US looms at a scale that is hardly sustainable, and likely to be a
short-lived, even if amazing!, occurrance.  I want to come meet you guys,
mine your thoughts, and then I want to go back to my bioregion and deepen my
permacutural existence.  Let's do it while we can!
 
But it all boils down to scale really, doesn't it?  Is it even possible to be
a commercial producer AND a permie?  Darren Doherty might add that old
permies in Australia say, "don't sell it if it can't walk or fly off your
farm." 
 
My cash crop is blueberries.  I add new varieties every year, and believe me,
they are perfectly capable of both walking and flying out of my gardens!  OK,
maybe that's a bit of a stretch, but you get the idea.  It's a perennial crop
whose fruit is intended to be removed by highly-mobile vectors, and planted
elsewhere.  In my mouth is one of the more common destinations.
 
One of the most common questions I get from my family is, 'why don't you
start a permaculture business?'  And the answer is, I don't know.  I'm still
thinking about that one, and it strikes me as a really heavy question...
 
Tripp out.



The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 

--- On Mon, 12/7/09, Udan Farm <udanfarm@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Udan Farm <udanfarm@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] double digging PLUS machinery? etc.
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Monday, December 7, 2009, 8:37 PM


A few days ago I was looking at someone's permaculture website, and they were
talking about trattoria-I guess it's a fancy word for small tractors. I've
seen a few "permaculture" websites talking about what I call BIG machinery
(anything over a push lawnmower that cost more than about $500 is BIG to me),
then the questions about double digging made me go back to thinking about
what IS and is not permaculture...

And I began to wonder-is using machinery on a REGULAR basis good
Permaculture? Is growing 6 or 8 thousand pounds of food on a small plot of
land PERMAculture? Or is it market gardening with an eco-twist…Not that I'm
trying to offend anyone who's doing it...I'm just trying to get clear in my
head what Mollison wrote about.


I then was searching on this list, and found a thread about the Paleo diet
and permaculture. Paleo-permaculture he called it.

This is pretty much what I keep coming back to, is that if you have a true
permaculture site it's not tilled rows of greens to sell, or corn.  In MY
thoughts, it's probably lots perennial veggies, some annuals here and there,
hopefully lots of nuts if you are lucky enough to live on a place with trees
old enough to harvest nuts, or even oak trees for acorns.

But in my imaginary perfect permaculture farm, there is very little corn, no
soy, no wheat, maybe some quinoa, amaranth and buckwheat (I am very anti
GRASS as food right now) and lots of sweet potatoes (I live in GA) and
potatoes in the spring.
So there are starches, but not grasses. Everything should be appropriate to
your area-so ok, if you live in Kansas you have more corn and wheat…


But I was still wondering about gardening vs. agriculture…the reality of
having tractors and row-crops being not really what I'd call
permaculture…wondering if any true premie uses machinery for more than
earthworks upon setup of a site...


and I was listening to Mollison's 1983 PDC….and then he gave me my answer....

"Agriculture always was an unnecessary activity. It is not at all necessary
to involve one's self in agriculture whatsoever. But it is very necessary to
involve yourself in gardening...A garden is something that provides a
HOUSEHOLD with it's nutrient. Agriculture is something in which you
commercially sell off your product. That leaves the question of area right
out of it. If you've got a glass house (greenhouse) in your back yard and
you've only got tomatoes in it you're in agriculture because you intend to
sell those tomatoes not feed yourself. If you've got a mixed garden in your
backyard then your a gardener. And you give away or trade a little bit of
product…." ( To get rid of your excesses and get something you don't have.)
"That's not commerce, that's rightful disposal of surplus where someone can
use it…" 

Someone asked about wheat. Mollison said, "Wheat and bread and grains
generally, and grain legumes are a great problem in the system. They are the
central problem… In my house you won't find any stored grains-we threw them
all out to the ducks. Because we can grow potatoes. And that's our staple
diet. And if we start to eat grains, we need an agriculturalist."
He did then mention that they were just beginning to try non-cultivation
method of growing grains. "But if we don't get it, we'll stick to potatoes,
and in the garden."
On that note, I threw out a bunch of things like old bulgar, some buggy oats,
and something I've had so long I don't remember what it is. Gave em to the
chickens. We have 8 bushels of sweet potatoes to get us through til Spring.
Just my two centsIsabel





     
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>
> Some regional gatherings include:
> 1. The northeast US pc convergence held annually for many years, but I think
> it has not been happening for some time.

http://northeasternpermaculture.wikispaces.com/Summer+Gathering
The Northeastern North American convergences are still going strong.

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Earn your permaculture design certificate.
The Finger Lakes Permaculture Institute
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http://www.fingerlakespermaculture.org
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