permaculture

[christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>]

Actually, it is up above Batstrop, weathered hill top, no silt or  
alluvial anything. I think at lower elevations they have soil, but  
where my friend lives it is pretty poor for soil. He keeps a garden,  
but hauled in all the dirt from somewhere else.

Pretty country, just not good for farming up there.
On Dec 2, 2009, at 7:58 AM, Kevin Topek wrote:

> Dear Christopher,
>
> I apologize for jumping to conclusions and taking offense to your
> observations. The Cedar Creek, TX  you refer to is just west of
> Bastrop. I assume it has Colorado River silt atop a clay and caliche
> base. I remember cotton being farmed there for many of the last few
> decades. You are correct that Pines grow near riparian areas and scrub
> Oaks in the uplands and creek channels. I have also been planting
> Palms in the Austin area caliche and it appears to work. Please drop a
> line the next time you visit the Lone Star State. I am truly humbled.
>
> Happy Trails!
> Kevin Topek
>
> On Dec 1, 2009, at 9:51 PM, christopher nesbitt wrote:
>
> > Hi Kevin,
> >
> > Whoa! Slow down, pardner.
> >
> > No slight on Texas, at all. I have spent a lot of time in Texas,  
> > and a
> > lot of time in Austin, Bastrop, San Marcos and Cedar Creek, and loved
> > it. Have also spent time in east texas, south Texas and west Texas,
> > and even up in the panhandle.
> >
> > You asked this as a question, "To which part of Texas are you
> > referring, Christopher?" so will answer it as such: The land in  
> > Orange
> > Walk that is not suitable for agriculture looks a lot like a friends
> > place in Cedar Creek, Texas, which is right outside of Bastrop. The
> > land in Cedar Creekk that I was referring to is similarly not  
> > suitable
> > for agriculture. That is the Texas I was referring to, and it is a
> > part of Texas I know very well. I don't know if you have been to
> > either of these locations, but I assure you they strongly resemble
> > each other in plant communities and poorness of soil.
> >
> > The soil is leached, and the dominant tree species is oak on both
> > pieces of land. If there weren't cahune palms on the horizon, across
> > the savana, I would have thought I was in Cedar Creek, Texas, and not
> > Belize. The grass on both pieces of land is stunted. The soil on my
> > friends land in Texas is significantly better than the soil in Orange
> > Walk, but still poor, and I wouldn't want either of them for farming.
> >
> > Sorry for any perceived insult to the great state of Texas. I assure
> > you none was implied.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Christopher
> >
> > On Dec 1, 2009, at 8:15 PM, Kevin Topek wrote:
> >
> > > Christopher Nesbitt also wrote this line.
> > >
> > > "Nothing much grows there, some oak, some pines. It looks like
> > > Texas."
> > >
> > > Do you imagine
> > > Texas to be a vast wasteland. It most certainly is not! Currently  
> > > I'm
> > > awash in flood waters. Texans do not appreciate being denigrated.
> > >
> > > Kevin Topek, native Texan and damn proud of it
> > >
> > > On Dec 1, 2009, at 7:51 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm curious where you are hearing the difficulties being played
> > > > down.
> > > > Specifically, if you would, as I'd like to know who or what to put
> > > > on my
> > > > "ignore those idiots" list for my students.
> > > >
> > > > Bill makes many references to the importance, if you want to farm,
> > > > of
> > > > finding land with good water, good soil, and good microclimate,
> > > > but I
> > > > couldn't find anything about how easy it is. I was trying to find
> > > > statements in permaculture books, or Permaculture Activist articles
> > > > about it being less than a lot of work to rehabilitate damaged  
> > > > land.
> > > > All
> > > > I can find is descriptions of projects that involve a great deal of
> > > > work
> > > > ("first we dug 8 km of swales and put in two 1/4 Ha ponds, then
> > > > planted
> > > > 4000 trees while living in a tent for the first 3 years because we
> > > > were
> > > > too tired to build . . ."). Holmgren's Meliodora book, one of the
> > > > few
> > > > detailed case studies out there, talks about 8 years of hard work
> > > > and
> > > > then years more of modifications.  Yes, Bill jokes about how  
> > > > after 5
> > > > years of work, the designer can become the recliner, but that seems
> > > > close to the truth from my own experience on 10 acres of degraded
> > > > land.
> > > > Of course, I finally figured out that most of that land wanted to  
> > > > be
> > > > forest and not farm, so I only gardened on 1/8 acre of it, which
> > > > wasn't
> > > > too hard. But Bill writes repeatedly about asking what the land
> > > > wants
> > > > instead of imposing our will on it, and I eventually listened to
> > > > him.
> > > >
> > > > So who are these ignoramuses you keep running into?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > and, Christopher Nesbitt wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > it is just land that is not suitable for agriculture.
> > > >
> > > > Boy, if there's one lesson I could get across, that would be it.
> > > >
> > > > Toby
> > > > http://patternliteracy.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rain Tenaqiya wrote:
> > > > > I grew up with an intense hunger for my own plot of land, and was
> > > > > desperate by the time I had the resources to buy some.  I really
> > > > > identify with the lust for land of the US "pioneers" and landless
> > > > > peasants.  I feel that permaculture, in its current form, does a
> > > > > disservice to those seeking land by playing down the difficulties
> > > > > of marginal land.  It is true that a lot of land that is currently
> > > > > considered marginal can be coaxed into producing yields for
> > > > > satisfying vital needs, but only with more work, money, time,
> > > > > energy, and other inputs than prime farming land.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the other hand, it is less likely that permaculturists would
> > > > > create dustbowls, because our practices are diametrically opposed
> > > > > to such outcomes.  We don't like tilling, bare soil, and
> > > > > overirrigation or unsustainable water use, and we like mulching,
> > > > > perennials, appropriate earthworks, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rain
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> >
> >
> > _____________________________
> > Christopher Nesbitt
> >
> > Maya Mountain Research Farm
> > San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> > PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> > BELIZE,
> > Central America
> >
> > www.mmrfbz.org
> >
> >
> >
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_____________________________
Christopher Nesbitt

Maya Mountain Research Farm
San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
BELIZE,
Central America

www.mmrfbz.org