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  • From: Ray Cirino <cobanation@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: [permaculture] Bubbling water for Water Woman Showers
  • Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:04:55 -0700 (PDT)

 We just secured a deal with the most amazing water I've ever seen here in
Joshua Tree. We will be spraying people with what the experts call champagne
water. It actually bubbles. If anyone would like to join us early. please
call and we''ll set you up free before the event.
www.waterwomanprojet.org
818-834-7074
Regards,
Ray





>From diebrand@yahoo.com Sun Sep 20 16:11:18 2009
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Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:11:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Svar: autumn Seedballs?
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>what i am looking for is at the end of emilias text, were she gives 
>species recommendations for the tropics.
 
Sorry, no luck there!  Looking through my old files, I only found some image
files with hand-written planting calendars for temperate climates. 
Searching my other files on Emilia, I only found one with a couples of
mentions about the tropics in her “Synergistic Agriculture Handbook”, but
there she only talks about the tropics in general without any species
recommendations.  Did you try Google?
 
Dieter


--- On Sun, 9/20/09, georg parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at> wrote:


From: georg parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Svar: autumn Seedballs?
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 8:31 PM


hi dieter:

well, i am satisfied with the german text, for i can read it.

> I think, I still have some of the manuscripts of Emilia Hazelip 
> someone once uploaded to the net as image files.  I’m not sure if 
> they correspond to the data you look for.

what i am looking for is at the end of emilias text, were she gives 
species recommendations for the tropics. if this is shown on your 
image files i would be very grateful if i can receive the relevant one.

best,
georg




Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Georg Parlow
************
g.parlow@gmx.at
1230 Wien, Wohnpark Alterlaa B1/013
+43-650-8899345


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>From tpj@life.ku.dk Sun Sep 20 16:34:30 2009
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Dieter,
Thank you very much for sharing your experience. This is extremely valuable
for me at this point.
It is very sad to read and hear that Fukuokas technique has not been
reproduced. His book The One Straw Revolution is not a practical guide
though. What I get out from the book is very valuable anyway. All he says
about his farming approach makes completely sense to me. He also says that he
always advised his students, not to do as he did, but rather to find their
own way. As he has not moved from his farm for several decades, his
experience maybe very much based on the particular local environment. Also he
says that it took him 20+ years to succeed until he felt like Columbus.
Obviously he was aware that his discovery was a very personal thing, not only
in the satisfaction he felt but also in the particular way of his farming
practices.

When I showed Fukuoka’s book to a colleague of mine from the Department of
Plant Ecology he straight replied: ”Oh this is the work nobody could
reproduce”.
So what is reproduction exactly? As a natural scientist, this would mean to
exactly follow, what the author writes in his or her Material and Methodes. I
don’t want to take this too literal in this case, if you understand what I
mean.
If I succeed to grow any cereal crop intercropped with a legume plant,
without ploughing the soil, without the use of herbicides, pesticides or
fertilizers, I will claim that I reproduced Fukuoka, even when the cereal
crop is not rice. To do that it may however take 20 years from now. In the
scientific world, this would not be a reproduction, but certainly a proof of
concept.

I work in the section of Plant Nutrition. Your questions about the mechanism
of nutrient uptake make completely sense. And I can assure you that all the
evidence supports the view that uptake of nutrients exclusively takes place
as uptake across the plasma membrane via transmembrane transporters. Uptake
of via endocytosis is not known. And even if that was the case, the nutrients
would have to pass an endomembrane to be available for processes in the
cytoplasm anyway.
Interestingly, in highly dynamic ecosystems, organic compounds are not always
mineralized down to inorganic ions. Here plants often take up amino acids,
which has the great advantage that they can be used right away for anabolism
and growth. Here roots do not need to import carbon from the photosynthesis
of the leaves, which saves a lot of energy.
In low dynamic systems, however, plant available nutrients are completely
mineralized, e.g. nitrogen is available as NH4+ or NO3-.
The confusing thing is, that generally, the tropical rainforest is mentioned
as the prime example of a highly dynamic system as opposed to the temperate
region as the low dynamic system. But this is not entirely true. Yes, in
agricultural systems, plants are provided with inorganic nutrients where they
are applied at concentrations that can never be handled by the plants and
wash out. I am pretty positive that in permaculture and natural farming, a
substantial amount of nutrients is absorbed as organic compounds. The
decomposing organic matter supplied through green manures is probably the
most efficient way of making nutrient bioavailable for the plants. That is
one of the hypothesis I want to address in my research.

It would make completely sense to me if it took many years until soil
organisms had developed to a stable community for the system to work at high
efficiency. Any disturbance of the soil ecosystem in particular those that
harm natural predators of pathogens by compromising different strategies may
delay the development. Here I see one of the reasons why people did not
”reproduce” Fukuoka. Another reason may be the selection of varieties. For my
study I will definitely go back to very old varieties of cereals. But this
leads to another topic.

Dieter,
Thank you once more for your suggestions. I greatly appreciate the experience
of people that have been doing natural farming and permaculture for several
years.

Martin,
I hope not to mess up your discussion about your project in Bulgaria.

Best wishes
Thomas


>>> Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com> 20-09-09 18:29 >>>
Martin,

I live in a hot and very dry climate. The difficulty I have experienced is
that seeds germinate easier without seedballs then with seedballs. In other
words, seeds inside seedballs need more rain than the naked seeds. And
sufficient rain is exactly what we don’t have in this region.

You may have sufficient humidity but may experience different problems that
you will only find out about after conducting tests for a number of years.
One problem I can see with autumn sowing of annual crops (if that is what you
intend to do) is that some seeds, instead of germinating in spring, may
germinate on a warm autumn day and than die during the winter, which will
result in the loss of your seeds. In other words, you need to check minimum
germination temperatures for all your seeds and compare these with your
expected autumn temperatures. But with uncertain climatic conditions, this
will still not safeguard completely against some seeds germinating
prematurely.

Thomas,

I have practiced Natural Farming for nearly 10 years and also followed
closely Natural Farming in Japan and elsewhere. Fukuoka has done a great job
of demonstrating his method and making it known through his writing.
Unfortunately, his methods are not being used in farming, not even on his own
farm or in parts of Japan where growing conditions are most advantageous.
Among the few thousand farmers actually practicing Natural Farming in Japan,
most follow Kawaguchi’s methods, some Okada’s (the founder of Natural
Farming), others again belong to Shumei, which is a somewhat spiritually
oriented split-away group from the Okada school. There are also different
schools of Natural Farming in Korea, the Philippines and other parts.

The problem with Fukuoka has been all along that his philosophical leaning
doesn’t address the practical problems farmers have to face. Most who are
impressed by Fukuoka are non-farmers who take an idealistic approach to
farming, and who will all too often insist on a dogmatic interpretation of
his writing. The few who actually try his methods usually give up after a
season or two. I have seen this again and again over the years, and not just
in the West but even in Japan.

For Natural Farming to be successful we need to find a practical approach
that takes into consideration local growing conditions even if the method
chosen are very different from those used by Fukuoka.

Now I have a question for you relating to your field of study. I have for a
number of years been interested in plant nutrition. I.e, the question of
whether plants live on chemical substances absorbed via ion exchange (is that
the correct expression?) or whether they take up entire molecules that pass
through the cell membrane (endocytosis). In other words, do they do the one
or the other? Or do they do both? Or do they do the one in preference over
the other? Or do my questions not make any sense?

I have ploughed through a lot of scientific gibberish over the years, but not
being a trained biologist I can’t make out to what conclusion scientists have
come, or if science, today, even has any definite idea about plant nutrition.
I would be grateful if you could give us your view in terms that can be
understood by the layman.

I thing the answer is not trivial, because our way of growing food will
ultimately depend on our concept of the way in which plants take up
nutrients. If they live on dead chemical substances there is no need to go
to the trouble of organic or natural farming. If, on the other hand, plants
take up whole molecules which are the products of decaying microorganisms,
chemicals-based farming with all its toxic substances seems like a very
high-risk undertaking.

PS: Did you read H.P. Rusch on Soil Fertility (Bodenfruchtbarkeit). One of
his central ideas is the “cycle of living substances” between soil, plants
and humans. Incidentally, he came to the same conclusion as Fukuoka that
soil must not be turned up-side down by ploughing.

Dieter Brand
Portugal




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